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NBA Top 50 Players of All-Time
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How close is KD to breaking into that Top 20? :)
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jdw wrote:
How close is KD to breaking into that Top 20? :)

Really, really close. On my list he is practically interchangeable with Karl Malone and will bump him next year.

Most of the members in my top 20 (and the top 20 of the others) have at least one league MVP and have been the best player on a championship team. West was never league MVP, but he led his teams to the title game 9 times and I have no problem putting him in the top 10. Btw, who do you think was the best player on the Dubs last year? I thought KD clearly deserved the finals MVP, but that Steph was slightly more valuable during the regular season.

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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So looking at this and what's left to play for in the CF and Finals:

jdw wrote:
JDW's updated through the end of 2016/17

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. LeBron James
5. Tim Duncan
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Wilt Chamberlain
10. Jerry West

Lebron has been insane and if he wins it all, you kind of think of moving him up. But...

Kareem's career is missing 2-4 years because he went to UCLA rather than straight-to-the-NBA like Kobe/KG/Bron or two-and-done like Magic/Zeke. Jabbar was the best player in the NBA the moment he stepped foot in it. He averaged 34-18-5 in the ECF against the World Champion Knicks that year, including an insane 38-23-11 in Game 2 and a just-as-insane 33-31-5 in Game 3. You kind of think he would have been pretty good if he entered two years earlier, especially if joining the Pistons (rather than Jimmy Walker) to pair with Two Daves: terrific all-arounder Dave DeBusschere and Dave Bing coming off a rookie season he averaged 20-5-4. A wee bit more talent to work with than the Bucks. :)

Anyway, I'm fine letting Bron play out his career and chase the Top 3. All of those guys above him have full sublime careers to top. It's okay to wait and watch how it turns out.

On the other hand...

If Bron beats a full strenghted healthy Warriors in the Final, then yes... the hell with waiting, we can move him up to #1. That's not likely to happen.

11. Oscar Robertson
12. Hakeem Olajuwon
13. Shaquille O'Neal
14. Moses Malone
15. Elgin Baylor
16. John Havlicek
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. Kevin Durrant
19. Julius Erving
20. Isiah Thomas

If KD wins this year and plays in the same range as last year, I'd move him above Dirk... probably Hondo though it's okay to wait on that one. Dirk's win with Dallas remains more impressive than anything KD is likely to do, and more than most of the guys *ahead* of him. But it is just one thing, and we're judging folks on more than one thing. Still, those Mavs beating Bron+Wade+Bosh is a nutty thing.

21. Kevin Garnett
22. Walt Frazier
23. Rick Barry
24. Steph Curry
25. Karl Malone
26. Charles Barkley
27. Dwyane Wade
28. Sam Jones
29. Scottie Pippen
30. Dave Cowens

If the Dubs win and Curry is reasonably healthy playing well through Houston and the Final, I think he moves in that range of Zeke.

31. Kevin McHale
32. David Robinson
33. Dennis Rodman
34. John Stockton
35. Willis Reed
36. Gary Payton
37. Steve Nash
38. Billy Cunningham
39. Bob Pettit
40. Bob Cousy

41. George Mikan
42. Chris Paul
43. Paul Pierce
44. Dennis Johnson
45. Ray Allen
46. Bob McAdoo
47. David Thompson
48. Hal Greer
49. Bob Dandridge
50. Bill Walton

If Houston wins, going through the Dubs and Lebron, then CP3 and Harden move rapidly up the list.

We tend to underrate Harden because he's so annoy and often so awful on defense. But he's been the #1 player on a team that has gone 54-28, 56-26, 55-27 & 65-17 over 4 of the last 5 season, with Dwight Howard being part of screwing up the one down season in the middle of that. Before that, he averaged 26-5-6 on a team that improved by 11 games and made the playoffs with him as the #1 player on the team. Before that, he averaged 17-4-4 as the 6th Man of the Year on a team that went to the NBA Finals before losing to Bron+Wade+Bosh. He's been runner up for the MVP twice, and is going to win it this year. He's done all that, and is only 28 this year. He's had a heck of a career already. About the only thing someone like McAdoo has on him is the MVP (which is moot after this season) and being the 6th Man on an NBA Title.

He annoys the hell out of me. But four 50+ win seasons in the West, only getting another high end teammate on those teams this season (and jumping up to 65)... that's carrying the heck out of a team.
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jdw wrote:
If Bron beats a full strenghted healthy Warriors in the Final, then yes... the hell with waiting, we can move him up to #1. That's not likely to happen.

I have LeBron third, and I agree that a championship this year would put him on track for #1. Maybe not instantly #1, but he would get there with a couple more typical LeBron seasons.

I agree with your points about Harden. With his presumed MVP this year, he will have 1 MVP and 2 runners-up in the last 4 seasons. He has been the best player on some darn good teams. Yes, he is annoying to watch and tough to root for, but he is an offensive savant.

By the way, for a fresh take on a Top-40 list, check out Ben Taylor at his "Backpicks" site. The criteria for his ranking is "the players who have provided the largest increase in the odds of a team winning championships over the course of their careers." It's a very well-considered list, with lots of supporting data and video.

The Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History

This is a good read, too.

Backpicks GOAT: the value of longevity and defense

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't let Yohe see where they ranked Elgin. ;)
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any list that has Garnett ahead of Magic Johnson is not for me.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bored, so thought I'd run through something that I've always felt wasn't right.

In Bill Simmons big book, he would list the number of years someone played, the number of "quality" seasons they had, and the number of All-Star appearances. The first two are factual, while the middle one is subjective.

So the one that I felt wasn't right was Jabbar's:

"20 years, 13 quality, and 15 All Stars."

This isn't to slag Simmons for something that could be seen as a nitpick, or to toss it off as "Bill hates the Lakers" or "Bill hated Jabbar" because he tended not to let those things impact his rankings:

4. Magic
5. Bird

9. West
10. Oscar

and of course specifically on Jabbar:

3. Jabbar

At a time when Jabbar was starting to fade from the memory of some and the level of respect he was receiving was lessening. To a large degree, Simmons helped pump up how folks thought about Jabbar and he's been treated with strong respect this decade.


"13 quality"

Jabbar was 1st or 2nd team All Pro 15 different times. We could just toss that out and be done with it. But I'm more interested in how many seasons were "quality" based on the standards Bill applied to other folks.

#1 - Clear Quality End Point

A starting point would be to see if there's clear point on the back end at which we know Bill thought Jabbar was still tossing up a quality season. I would take this is the point:

"best player of 4 champs ('71, '80, 82, 85) and 3 runner-ups"

It's pretty safe to say that if someone is the best player on the Champ or Runner-Up, that's a quality season. I don't even think for the famous no-HOFer 2004 Pistons that their best player could not have been said to have had a quality season.

So we have at least as late as Jabbar 1985 as a quality season. We could quibble if Jabbar (22-8-3 on .599/.732 shooting) was better than Magic (18-6-13 on .561/.843) in 1985. Magic was 2md in the MVP to Bird, while Jabbar was 4th behind Moses. But... that's clearly a quality season.

Those "runner-ups are useful" as they would be 1974, 1983 and 1984. They can't be Jabbar's other runner-up in 1989 because we'll concede that he was washed up.

So 1983-1984-1985 were quality. If we look at Cowens/Hondo when they were the best/2nd best on the 1974 & 1976 Celtics, those were considered quality seasons for Cowens and Hondo. Pretty sure every 2nd Best on a title team or runner up that we would find in the book would have that season treated as quality.

Then toss in 1982 since that was "best player on a champ".

1982-1983-1984-1985 are at least as far as we can go for late end Jabbar quality. We'll comeback to 1986-89 later, though have already indicated 1989 wasn't quality.

#2 - Clear Prime / Near Prime

So sure, we could have started here and then worked downward. I think it's better to start with 1982-85 because (i) every season better than those four seasons is a quality season, (ii) everything worse than those seasons are ones we will look at, and of course the sneaky (iii) "if we still have quality seasons in Jabbar's 16th year, how in the heck can we get back down to 13 seasons?" argument that springs to mind.

So Clear Prime / Near Prime. First the easy ones.

From 1970-80, Jabbar was the MVP six times in 11 years, first team All Pro in 7 seasons and second team in three of the other 4. He was 5th in the MVP and first team All Defense in the one season he didn't make either of the All Pro teams (1975). So those all have to be layups, right?

He was injured in two of those seasons - 1975 and 1978, playing 65 and 62 games. How about we set those aside for looking at later. But in their place would be stretching the Clear Prime / Near Prime to 1981.

1980 25-11-5 (MVP winner, 1st team AP)
1981 26-10-3 (3rd in MVP, 1st team AP)
1982 24-9-3 (10th in MVP)
1983 22-7-3 (10th in MVP, 2nd team AP)
1984 21-7-3 (4th in MVP, 1st team AP)
1985 22-8-3 (4th in MVP, 2nd team AP)

1981 is closer to his last MVP season than his typical 1982-85. The Lakers got bounced in the first round of the playoffs with Moses averaging 31-18-3 against Jabbar. But Cap put in 27-17-4, so it was less his fault than Magic having a terrible series and tossing up the airball at the end. We can safely retain 1981 as a quality season.

So setting aside 1975 & 1978 for a later look, we have for this group:


That's 10 and the four from 1982-85 get us to 14. I don't think it's possible to exclude any of those 14 and remain consistent with how Bill treats "quality" for the rest of the players on the list.

#3 - The Injury Years

1975 30-14-4 (5th in MVP, 1st team All Defense)
1978 26-13-4 (4th in MVP, 2nd team AP & AD)

It's clear that Jabbar was delivering quality while playing. So the question is whether 65 & 62 games is too few to have a quality season.

1975 also stands out as the Bucks didn't make the playoffs that season, and a chunk of the reason was Jabbar's injury. He punched the basket support and broke his hand in a preseason game after getting poked in the eye. The Bucks were simply awful while he was out: 3-13. They finished 38-44, two games out of the last playoff spot. If Jabbar doesn't break his hand, they are a playoff team. That's a pretty fair knock on it being a quality season - Jabbar's self injury cost the team a playoff spot. On the other hand, it was a bad team with Bob Dandridge the only other good player. There's an argument there, though we'll hit it later.

The 1978 team made the playoffs, so it's not an issue there.

So... the easy cheat "win" here would be to cite Magic's 1981 season.

Bill has Magic a quality plays in 12 of his 13 seasons, which means all of his 1980-91 core were quality seasons while leaving off his mid-90s comeback attempts.Magic only played 37 of 82 games that year, averaging 22-9-9. If that is a quality season, than Jabbar's 1975 & 1978 seasons were.

I say that's a cheat because clearly Simmons was wrong on that - Magic's 1981 wasn't a quality season. You can't miss more than half the year and call it a quality season. So we need some better examples.

On the other hand, it would be fair to point to Magic's 1984 season (18-7-13, 3rd in the MVP & 1st team All NBA) where he played 67 games and was considered quality. That's a reasonable conclusion by Simmons - Magic was a quality player that year.

Duncan played 66 games in 2005 (20-11-3, 4th in the MVP, 1st team All NBA & Defense) and was considered quality. Which also was perfectly reasonable.

Simmons gives Shaq 14 quality seasons out of 18 through 2010. It's safe to say that it's 2007 (where he played just 40 games 17-7-2) through 2010 that are non-quality as Shaq was fading, That means everything prior to that was quality, including seasons where he played this number of games:

54 - 1996
51 - 1997
60 - 1998
67 - 2002
67 - 2003
67 - 2004
59 - 2006

That's just what Shaq was for a lot of his prime - hurt all the time. In that same run, here were his healthy seasons:

81 - 1993
81 - 1994
79 - 1995
49 - 1999 (of 20 in the lockout/strike season)
79 - 2000
74 - 2001
73 - 2005

Half his prime seasons saw him missing big chunks of the year. Yet they all were considered quality. I don't know if I would go that far with Shaq's 1996 & 1997 seasons as missing 28-31 games is a hell of a lot to miss. But Shaq was quite good and a massive force when healthy in those years, so I could see the argument.

Jabbar was just as good, and frankly better, in 1975 & 1978 than Shaq was in all of his sub-70 game quality seasons.

There are countless other players we could look at that would give more examples. Hakeem has 14 QS out of 18 seasons. 2000-2002 are clearly washed up and three of non-quality seasons. That means the 2 of 3 seasons where Hakeem played 68, 56 and 47 games got to quality level. My guess is the 1998 season (16-10-3 in 47 games) got dropped. That means his 1991 (21-14-2 in 56 games) was quality.

I could keep going. But we can simply say that 1984 Magic, 2005 Duncan, all those Shaq seasons and 1991 Dream are enough to move this one over to the quality camp:

1978 26-13-4 in 62 games (4th in MVP, 2nd team AP & AD)

I just don't see anyway to argue that is not a quality season.

However, all of those were playoff seasons for those players. We need to find if there's anything like Jabbar's 1975 non-playoff season that gets treated as quality.

Kobe is listed as having 13 quality seasons out of 14 through 2010. Clearly his rookie 8-2-1 season was dropped. No idea why his second season (15-3-3 while starting just 1 game and averaging 26 minutes) was considered quality as it typically was the type Simmons wouldn't give a QS to. Anway, here are some games played numbers for Kobe in that run:

66 - 2000
68 - 2001
65 - 2004
66 - 2005

People forget that Kobe was hurt a crapload in the peak Shaqobe run of 2000-2004 and in the first season after Shaq left.

2005 is useful to look at as the Lakers didn't make the playoffs, similar to Jabar's Bucks in 1975. The 2005 Lakers are kind of legendary for surrounding Kobe with crap. He put up 28-6-6 in 66 games for a 34-48 team, was 3rd team All NBA, no MVP votes.

1975 30-14-4 in 65 games for a 38-44 team, 5th in MVP, 1st team All Defense
2005 28-6-6 in 66 games for a 34-48 team, no MVP votes, 3rd team All NBA

The only advantage that Kobe has is that 3rd team All NBA. There was no 3rd team All NBA in 1975. If there was, we can look at the MVP and know that Jabbar would have been the 3rd team All NBA Center:

1. McAdoo (C)
2. Cowens (C)
3. Hayes (PF)
4. Barry (SF)
5. Jabbar (C)

Unseld was the next center in the voting - 10th. So no real advantage there, which is kind of obvious given the MVP voting game.

One other common item. You could say it was Jabbar's fault for the Bucks not making the playoffs be breaking his hand. Same thing could be said of Kobe - it was Kobe or Shaq that would stay, and his relationship with Phil was one of the things that led to Phil leaving. Kobe's hardball play in the off season was one of the reasons the Lakers had crappy talent in 2005.

Someone could try to argue that Simmons was wrong on Kobe's 2005 being quality. I don't think he is.

So I would move Jabbar's 1975 season into the QS column along with the 1978 year.

#4 - Washed Up Years

So let's move backwards and see what seasons can easily be knocked off.

1989 10-5-1

That clearly is not a good year for a starting center.

1988 15-6-2


1987 18-7-3 on .564/.714 for an NBA Champ

You could say that the Lakers were effectively a Small Ball team even with a 7-2 center. That Jabbar's 18-7-3 on .564/.714 was not far off Worthy's 19-6-3 on .539/.751 to give Magic a pair of quality offensive running mates for his first MVP campaign as the Lakers went 65-17 and won the NBA Title. One could make an argument for that based on how the the Lakers were built that season, what they expected out of Jabbar and what he still delivered at the age of 39 that it was a quality season.

I'll pass on that. If people want to consider 1987 to be a non-quality season for Jabbar, that's fine. It's not the sort of year that we visualize when thinking of Jabbar as a dominant force, or even as an early-to-mid 80s Jabbar who wasn't in his prime but still a scary offensive player. 1987 Jabbar was down from that. Since we've added 1975 & 1978 to the clear quality seasons to show a 1970-85 sixteen year run, it's okay to not argue too hard for 1987. However, I would fight the notion that he was "washed up" in 1987.


#5 - 1986

1986 23-6-4 on .564/.765, 5th in the MVP, 1st team All NBA for a 62-20 team


Jabbar: 23-6-4 on .564/.765
Worthy: 20-5-3 on .579/.771
Magic: 19-6-13 on .526/.871
Scott: 15-3-2 on .513/.784

The team had Mo Lucas, Rambis and Green playing PF but also backing up at Center (Lucas) and a little at SF (Green though Copper also played there). They combined to average 21-18-3, though that is an optical illusion as the combined to average 59 minutes a game.

When you see the rebounds of Jabbar and Worthy, with Magic not having one of his high end rebounding season, you would think that the Lakers were a horrible rebounding team. They weren't. They were 7th in the league, 3rd in defensive rebounds. Their opponents were dead last in rebounds and defensive rebounds, and only 5 slots off the bottom in offensive rebounds. They were a pretty good rebounding team even when factoring in shooting (the Lakers shot a terrific .522 to lead the NBA) and pace.

*This* is where you would argue the Lakers were a Small Ball Team even with a 7-2 Center. They were extremely efficient offensively given those lusty shooting % of Jabbar and Worthy as an anchor, terrific in the half court and great in transition. While Magic was 3rd in the MVP to Bird and Dominique Wilkins, Jabbar was 5th right behind Hakeem. In turn, he slotted ahead of Hakeem in the All NBA voting.

The knock on Jabbar in 1986 is the lingering memory of the Twin Towers knocking the Lakers out of the post season, with Dream and Sampson dominating the Lakers and Jabbar. And yeah... for Lakers Fans, the end of that season is pretty painful. What's lost in time is why this was considered such an upset at the time: the Lakers won the regular season series 4-1, and specifically the Rockets Kid Centers had all sorts of problems with Jabbar.

Jabbar averaged 33-8-3 on .640/.719 shooting. He dropped 35, 46 and 43 on them in the first three games they played. He cooled to 18 and 23 in the last two regular season games, but one was the last road trip of the season, and the other the last game of the season. Those games were split. No big deal.

First game of the 1986 WCF, Jabbar is back to dropping 31-6-3 on the Rockets, the Lakers win by 12, and they are now 5-1 on the season against the Rockets. Jabbar is now averaging 33-7-3 on .627/.737 shooting. The Lakers aren't getting dominated by Hakeem and Sampson to this point:

26-12-2 Hakeem
21-11-6 Sampson

It's a great combo, but the Lakers are 5-1 and Jabbar is averaging 33 against them.

The Lakers famously lost the last four of the series. Jabbar averaged 26-7-4 in those games, though his shooting was down to .478/.696 in those four. Hakeem average 32-10-2 in the last four, including dropping 40, 35 and 30 in the last three. Sampson was 21-10-5 and hit the series winner.

Jabbar didn't play poorly in 1986 against the Rockets, or look like a washed up 39 year old. He actually played terrific against them in most of the Lakers-Rockets games. In the 10 games, he averaged 30-7-3 shooting .566/.721. Hakeem averaged 28-11-2 on .534/.644 shooting with 3.4 blocks and 2.8 steals a game. In the elimination Game 5, Hakeem put up a 30-7-1 while Jabbar was 26-13-3. That's not the kid taking the old man to school through the season, or even the series. More a passing of the torch, but the old man still able to fire bullets.

There's a reason Jabbar was 5th in the MVP voting and thought well enough to be 1st Team All NBA:

He was still a very good player on what people thought was one of the two best teams in the NBA along with the Celtics. 23-6-4 isn't what people traditionally thought of Centers, but the Lakers weren't exactly a traditional team. What they were was a very good team that in the end ran into a tough match up. That's what Jabbar was in 1986: a very good player who ran into a double team of bigs who were a tough match up. He schooled those kids a number of times in the 10 games. In the end, they got him and the Lakers... though it was just a 2 point win in Game 5 with an insanely lucky shot to avoid another period... and Jabbar did put up a 26-13-3 performance that would be considered a strong elimination performance by most anyone other than Kareem.

So to be consistent with how we looked at the Injury Seasons, here is a season that got tagged in the book as quality and how it comps with Jabbar 1986:

1986 23-6-4 on .564/.765, 5th in the MVP, 1st team All NBA for a 62-20 WCFinalis, 79 games played
2006 20-9-2 on .600/.469, no MVP votes, 1st team All NBA for a 52-30 NBA Champs, 59 games played


1986 26-6-4
2006 18-10-2

2006 is of course Shaq. Setting aside the robounding, which Shaq also didn't care a ton about relative to his youth anyway, the major differences are:

* Shaq won the NBA title while Jabbar got upset in the WCF
* Jabbar played 20 more games
* Jabbar elevated his play in the playoffs, while 2006 is famous for Wade carrying things

If 2006 Shaq is a quality season, then Jabbar's 20 years earlier is.

Long and short of it, I think we should treat Kareem's 1986 as a quality season. Those watching it at the time that it was better than just "quality" given how he did in the awards. I think they got it.

#6 - Summary

Quality Seasons: 1970-1986 (17)
Useful Player on a Champion: 1987
Mediore Season: 1988
Washed Up Season: 1989

I don't think the 17 quality seasons is unreasonable.

It's more likely that a closer look would find a number of examples of seasons tagged "quality" in the book that would be consistent with what Jabbar did in 1987. But the point is more to argue the 17 are very reasonable, and to expend time on arguing for 1975, 1978 and 1986 rather than try to thread the needle on 1987.


Last edited by jdw on Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itís very easy to make the case that Kareem has the best resume of any player.

You cited the 17 quality seasons. 6 titles, 6 MVPs. All-time leading scorer. Best college player ever.

He was also on his way to a relatively disappointing NBA career until Magic showed up. Facsinating man and career.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's interesting to ponder what would have happened if Magic stayed in school.

Jabbar-Silk-Nixon is a strong base to build from as Silk and Nixon where hitting their prime, and Cap was still one of the 2-3 best players in the NBA in 1980-82.

West loved Sidney Moncrief, so that's who they would have taken. On the other hand, it took a few years to turn into a frontline player for the Bucks. Magic was an 18-8-7 player right out of the gate.

They did have a nice trade chip in Dantley, who had proven that he couldn't play with fellow small forward Silk. BTW - that was a dumb ass thing to ever make transactions that put them both on the team:

July 11, 1977: Signed Wilkes
December 13, 1977: Traded for Dantley

70s and 80s General Managers made more dumb transactions than anyone ever.

Maybe they do a different deal in unloading Dantley rather than Hayword, looking for a guard to play with Nixon rather than a forward to pair with Silk.

It's pretty clear that they quickly knew they fucked up with the Haywood deal. The Chones trade was right before the start of the season. Haywood missed the 5th game of the season, Chones went into the line up... and stayed in the starting line up when Haywood returned after a couple of games. You kind of wish they never got Haywood in the first place.

There is no dynasty without Magic. But with the base of Jabbar-Silk-Nixon, maybe West could put something together to bag a title sometime between 1980-83.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jabbar----disappointing career.....he was MVP the year before. Were you around then? Before Johnson got there, he had won 6 MVP awards.

Jabbar got a lot of crap because of race back then. Trump people of today. They bitched because he stayed on the defense end during fast breaks. Called him lazy. You know like with a slave. They were too stupid to know the 5th man on a fast break is supposed to stay stop the other team from running back with a fast break.

Russell or Jabbar was the best.

Stuff about Baylor doesn't bother me much anymore, because people now give him some credit for what he was. Also during his first 6 years, two of them he was in the Army after being drafted. I think in his 6th year he blew out his knee & in those day surgery wasn't like today. He was always making come backs after that. I was a fan for just one or two of those years & he got hurt at the end of the 2nd of them. In those days, they only televised 10 games on TV & 5 or 6 of them were against Boston. So that meant they got their ass kicked in most of them. Also network TV games backed out home games. So I just had my radio & Chick....there I never missed a game. But Bayor was always my idol, but I never really saw him in his prime much. Anyone who did would be way over 70. I'm just a little over 70.---Yohe
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jag can speak for himself, but I think he means that without the 5 more titles that he won with Magic, his career would have been seen as disappointing.

He had five MVP's at the time: 1971, 1972, 1974, 1976, 1977

He won the sixth in Magic's first season in 1980, along with his second NBA Title.

As you say, Jabbar was taking a lot of shit by this point in his career. The movie Airplane was made in the summer of 1979 before that 1979/80 season started. This scene was making light of the real crap that Jabbar was dealing with:


Joey: Wait a minute. I know you. You're Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. You play basketball for the Los Angeles Lakers.

Roger Murdock: I'm sorry, son, but you must have me confused with someone else. My name is Roger Murdock. I'm the co-pilot.

Joey: You are Kareem! I've seen you play. My dad's got season tickets.

Roger Murdock: I think you should go back to your seat now, Joey. Right, Clarence?

Captain Oveur: Nahhhhhh, he's not bothering anyone. Let him stay here.

Roger Murdock: But just remember, my name is...

[showing his nametag]

Roger Murdock: ROGER MURDOCK. I'm an airline pilot.

Joey: I think you're the greatest, but my dad says you don't work hard enough on defense.

[Kareem gets angry]

Joey: And he says that lots of times, you don't even run down court. And that you don't really try... except during the playoffs.

Roger Murdock: [breaking character] The hell I don't! LISTEN, KID! I've been hearing that crap ever since I was at UCLA. I'm out there busting my buns every night! Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes!

If he ended up with just one title, that came in his 2nd season (1970/71), the Old Man's view sticks.

I was kind of that kid, though older at the time - I thought Jabbar was the greatest, but had to head that shit all the time and defend him to friends and adults. When 1979/80 happened, that sixth MVP (to get one more than Russell) and the second title (with that epic Game 5 performance on the bad ankle), I was fucking over the moon.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always loved the Lakers run to the title:

WCSF vs Phoenix (55-27, 3rd best in WC)
WCF vs Seattle (56-26, 2nd best in WC)
NBAF vs 76ers (59-23, 2nd best in EC)

With the 76ers having knocked off the 61-19 Celtics in the ECF.

The Lakers were the best in the West, and with no upsets in the early rounds had to go through the other two best teams to get to the Final.

The 76ers and Celtics were neck and neck for the best team in the East. The ECF came down to the two of them. The Lakers then got the winner.

Jabbar was awesome in the playoffs:

32-11-2, .592/.860 vs Suns
31-12-4, .583/.655 vs Sonics
33-14-3, .549/.808 vs 76ers

Overall: 32-12-3, .572/.790, 4 blocks

At the age of 32.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Real question, given the way the style of play across the league has changed over the past 5 years, is Curry one of the five most influential players ever?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


There are also a whole host of kids in college and high school that he's influenced. Of course most will wash out. But there will be a lot of players over the next 10+ years that will be influenced by Steph.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What does that top 5 look like? Thinking chronologically off the top of my head...Mikan, Elgin, Magic, MJ, Steph?

I agree about the college, high school etc influence. Steph kinda feels like he's going to have some real "opened the door for smaller guys" influence instead of the fake HBK version. 😊

How many players have changed the way the game is played? I think he's still underrated somehow.
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