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Lakers Draft (Yohe-Jag-jdw)
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Steve Yohe



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
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Location: Wonderful Montebello CA

PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we do it again, I'd like to add another person, otherwise it will be the same thing. Who ... I have no idea.

The rule on players being true Lakers, I would fix it...that to be a true Laker...you had to play 80 games in a Lakers uniform.

My thoughts: I'm going to rate the picks (not the players so much) from 1 to 5:

John's Team:

Magic Johnson
Yeah very good---but he needed to be backed up on defense---so one of the forwards would have to be on a guard ---your Ok with Baylor doing that, but the rest, maybe no .... well Fox...t so 41/2 --- and I'm not 100 % sure about character anymore. Johnson is big & I don't think he'll work heavy minutes like some of the superstars.

Elgin Baylor
His great in everyway ---- the new clips seem to back up what I remember. Great character --- on the level of West, but black --- the comments about him taking drug...would never happen-- very smart for big time shooter & would do the right thing.-so 5

Shaquille O'Neal
John needed a center but he isn't at the level of the other .... sloppy style of play ... character was sloppy ... I think he need Jackson to coach him ... your always going to dealing with his ego, and does he make good judgements. says 3 & 7/8 ... but John was forced into this.

Byron Scott
Off & on player .... D was Ok or good .... better at home, than on the road .... we're dealing with major guys ....& he was never better than the 3nd guy on any team ... others did the major work...but fits ok ..... so 3 & 7/8

Norm Nixon
Is his D good enough to play next to Magic .... well it was for a few championship years ----- he'd start for me--a take charge guy ....a point guard who can shot ... would Magic want him back? I say a 4

Bob McAdoo
This is not the Buffalo McAdoo --- I see him only coming off the bench .... can score, reb & block, but his team D isn't great ---- John thinks higher of him that I do so OK ... say 4.... for a 6th pick.

Eddie Jones
Smart pick .... don't really think much about him .... played during down years .... good D good scorer ... kind of big which John needed ..... at 7th pick...smart so 4.

Rick Fox
Better than average at everything .... good off the bench ... maybe help Magic on D .... very good at this point.... so 4.

Mychal Thompson
John needed Thompson ... good idea at #9 pick .... so 4

A.C. Green
Good #10 idea, but he was average in everything.....Coming off the bench he can't hurt so Ok ... say 4.

Yohe
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Steve Yohe



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How Yohe:

Team Yohe:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Can't go wrong ..... the first few years he was still at the Milwaukee level .... and never stopped being Jabbar...high grades in everything but didn't like to reb as he got older ... but I covered that. ... I would take him over anyone. so 5.

Jerry West
perfect player .... fits in with anyone or any situation .... as no character problems ... ever .... Both he & Jabbar play major minutes...they are like 40 minute guys in their prime ... weakness gets injured a lot .... so 4 3/4

Lamar Odom
I knew this would get heat but I respect the shit out of Odom .... handles the ball at a big size ... passes well. can shoot .... not bad at D .... great reb ... goes to the ball great .... major plater on championship teams ... can play any position ... big & skilled ------ in the lacker room everyone loved the guy & his problems came after being 6th man of the year..It end anyof my bench worrys & helps Jabbar with reb... it's gets knocked down because the other two pickers don't see it or think it's as important as me....so 4 1/4.

Jamaal Wilkes
I loved Wilkes .... to me better than Worthy ... before the Lakers was 2nd best players on title teams at UCLA (Twice) and GS. Always a killer in the playoffs. He'd be my starter at small forward. So 4 & 1/4

Robert Horry
I wanted him for his D .... and making big shots in the playoffs.... regulars season, he could do whatever he wanted coming off the bench. So 4 1/2

D'Angelo Russell
Well I was worrying about 3 point shooting & at the time, he was playing well. I'd put him on the bench & he'd having to earn his playing time.... now it looks like the worst pick of the draft. So 2. With this group of players, he might get some time, but I could have picked him at any time.

Derek Fisher
Very smart & both follows & leads ..... he'd start if Russell was the fuck up we pretty much know he is ... Good in the playoff & makes shots ... d just ok. So 3 & 3/4. A lot os the plays & shots will go thru Jabbar & West.

Karl Malone
Malone was sitting there & I needed a power forward to start ..... he would shoot, rebound, & eat up minutes ....we should had banned the idea before the draft .... I like the 80 game rule, because 2 seasons would be enough....I think 3 years is too stiff. This is a #8 pick & it would put me over the top. You two should protested & out voted me two to one. I say it's 4 & 1/2

Dick Barnett
Trouble is neither of you knew him as a Laker, so you don't get it. Barnett was big, good shooter, & had good D ... fun to be around & everyone loved him .... very cool .... probably the 3nd best player in those years. Big game player & I got him at #9. But you guys never saw him. Say a 4.

Keith Erickson
This was a guy who wasn't going to get a lot of minutes. Erickson was a very respected player. Played center on the first NCAA championship. Was the heart of the full court press that was the big thing in basketball those years. Mapor player with the Lakers & they traded him & brought him back. Very good D player & Ok over all. Very smart, so he fits in with this smart team. At this point I needed someone to fill in if West got hurt. So maybe a 3. Maybe Rudy LeRusso would have been better. Didn't matter either of you know either.

8 & 1/2 of these guys were very smart players. I figure they would figure out a way to win. Anyway that was my thinking. ---Steve Yohe
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Steve Yohe



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both me & John pick on Jag, so I'll try & be nice.

Team Jag

Kobe Bryant
Well Ok .... but good luck ... I don't respect Kobe like everyone else these days. When he was playing, I always defended him, but after he retired I was very happy to see him gone. John & I seem to have changed places. I remember the bad stuff & the ego. Anyway, we know that Kobe and Wilt would be fighting over everything. It would be Kobe vs Shaq X 100. Wilt had to be #1 in every fucking thing. And Kobe wouldn't back down. I'd hate to be around for it. The only way that would work would be for Bryant to back down. And he didn't do that his first year in the NBA. Kobe was very over rated on D most of the time. He romed around a lot. He shooting % always seemed too low for me. He was very overrated as a clutch shooter & took the same bad shots all the fucking time. Up until the last few years, he was a dick to most people. Ok that's enough .... this was probably the best pick for Jag so 4 3/4.

Wilt Chamberlain
Jab going 3rd forced his hand so sure. But he could have had West & Wilt? Wilt was the guys who claimed he could sore 50 point every night but he just didn't feel like it. We lost to three inferiors teams in the finals, because of Wilt. Anyway lets say 5.

James Worthy
Good pick & player. Fits in with anything. So 5.

Pau Gasol
Yeah. Lets say 5.

Gail Goodrich
Never could play D. Worst D player picked in the draft. Small but could play with Wilt. So 3 1/2. Would Kobe be a forward or guard. So Gail is the top guard.

Michael Cooper
Yeah. I think 4 1/4 Good role play that will last forever.

Sam Perkins
Good idea. Got us into a final once. So 4 1/2.

Nick Van Exel
Yeah....good guard ... but a starter? ----lets say 4

Vlade Divac
Divac never picked in LA. And he was mu favorite played. Overrated after that. He never was a gamer in my book. Say 3 & 1/2 at #9. With Wilt he isn't going to play much.

Metta World Peace
I don't want World Peace making decisions. It worked out for the Lakers, but it's more trouble. I don't know. Good D ... I guess. So at #10 I give 3 3/4.

So Kobe playing forward then you got guard problems so he must be a guard. The guard are also small. Goodrich is a hole in the D if he starts. I guess you push everything into Wilt, who would have to be the center of everything. A lot of questions with this group. Jag if you had taken West, I'm not sure I would have taken Kobe? I think I would have taken Baylor & forced Kobe on John? Today I think Baylor is better than Kobe, but then injuries need to be considered. I wonder how than works. I don't think my team would have been as good. --Steve Yohe
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the scores by Yohe

#1 == Jab with 43 points

# 2 = John with 37 1/4 points

#3 = Yohe with 36 1/4

The winner was Jab
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jdw
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your ratings of the picks are insane. Let's just look at the 3rd Round Picks for each of us:

Quote:
JDW - Shaquille O'Neal
John needed a center but he isn't at the level of the other .... sloppy style of play ... character was sloppy ... I think he need Jackson to coach him ... your always going to dealing with his ego, and does he make good judgements. says 3 & 7/8 ... but John was forced into this.


Yohe - Lamar Odom
I knew this would get heat but I respect the shit out of Odom .... handles the ball at a big size ... passes well. can shoot .... not bad at D .... great reb ... goes to the ball great .... major plater on championship teams ... can play any position ... big & skilled ------ in the lacker room everyone loved the guy & his problems came after being 6th man of the year..It end anyof my bench worrys & helps Jabbar with reb... it's gets knocked down because the other two pickers don't see it or think it's as important as me....so 4 1/4.

Jag - James Worthy
Good pick & player. Fits in with anything. So 5.


Just to make this as clear as possible:

Lamar, even after pulling hard on his crack pipe, would never think that he's a 4 1/4 while Shaq is a 3 & 7/8.

In turn, James Worthy, Houston Hooker #1 and Houston Hooker #2 would never in their wildest sex fantasy think that Worthy is a 5 while Shaq is a 3 & 7/8.

I'm not even going to touch on you thinking Malone in his one year with the Lakers was a 4 1/2.

* * * * *

Then Magic being only a 4 1/2 is bonkers.

The potential #1 picks to me were Magic, Jabbar with West as the longer shot, which is my way of saying that I rate West extremely high.

If I pick Jabbar at #1-1, it's almost certain that all of the top guards (Magic, West and Kobe) are going to be off the board by the time I pick again at #2-6. I think there's zero chance that those three aren't among the four guys you pick. On the flip side, if I take Magic, either Shaq or Wilt will still be on the board when I pick at #2-6. I fully know that either of you would take Jabbar first, and that the other would take either Shaq or Wilt.

There are other great Lakers available. But when you look at the top end when we picked, there were three guards (Magic, West, Kobe), three centers (Jabbar, Shaq & Wilt), and one forward (Baylor). We were each get one of the centers in the first six picks (or in my case 7 since I had the 6th & 7th). There was zero guarantee that we all were going to get one of the guards. If you're picking #1 overall and want to make sure to get one of those high end guards, you have to take them first.

Magic is the greatest PG in NBA history. He's also the winningest PG who didn't have the good luck of Bill Russell carrying him to titles. Taking either him or Jabbar at #1 overall is a 5 star pick.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So in more detail going over my picks. But first this point:

Steve Yohe wrote:
The rule on players being true Lakers, I would fix it...that to be a true Laker...you had to play 80 games in a Lakers uniform.


80 games is 1 season. That's not a "true Laker". Two full seasons *on the roster* is a perfectly reasonable number. There's only one player who was picked that didn't meet that - Malone. There's only one player on the current roster who won't meet that - Schroder. It's entirely possible that Schroder walks as a FA after this season. I really wouldn't consider him a Laker for something like this unless he came back and was with us all season next year. This isn't about guys who just passed through the team. That's shit for jobber franchises who don't have enough good players to fill out a trio of 10 man rosters. We shouldn't stoop to that stuff.


Quote:
John's Team:

Magic Johnson
Yeah very good---but he needed to be backed up on defense---so one of the forwards would have to be on a guard ---your Ok with Baylor doing that, but the rest, maybe no .... well Fox...t so 41/2 --- and I'm not 100 % sure about character anymore. Johnson is big & I don't think he'll work heavy minutes like some of the superstars.


Of course Magic is a 5.

On the defensive issue, I mentioned needing defense at Guard when taking Scott to pair with him. Magic's defense is what it is - just the price you pay in taking him. It's similar to Larry Bird or Steph Curry - they are so great on defense, and make their teammates great to such a degree that you accept the defense.

On the minutes, it's not like Magic played a low amount of minutes. He was top 10 in minutes in 1982-84, and Top 20 in pretty much all of the rest of the years of his career. This with (i) the Lakers blowing out a lot of teams each year to create loads of garbage time, and (ii) Riley being ahead of the curve in not burning his players out with monster regular season workloads. I also have Nixon and Jones coming off the bench at the guard spots, with Nixon being a high end Lou Williams level guy who could run an offense while Magic is on the bench. It's not a problem.


Quote:
Elgin Baylor
His great in everyway ---- the new clips seem to back up what I remember. Great character --- on the level of West, but black --- the comments about him taking drug...would never happen-- very smart for big time shooter & would do the right thing.-so 5


If Worthy and Cooper and Wilkes were great running the break with Magic and Nixon, imagine Baylor on the break with those two PG. Yikes!

Quote:
Shaquille O'Neal
John needed a center but he isn't at the level of the other .... sloppy style of play ... character was sloppy ... I think he need Jackson to coach him ... your always going to dealing with his ego, and does he make good judgements. says 3 & 7/8 ... but John was forced into this.


Lakers Shaq > Lakers Wilt

Shaq is the one who won three straight Finals MVP.

Wilt is the one who choked away Finals against (i) Russell on his last legs, (ii) an Willis Reed who couldn't move, and (iii) a washed up Willis Reed who outplayed him. It's worth noting that the single title he won in Los Angeles happened to come in a Finals when Reed was hurt and did not play a single minute.

Did Wilt have a better career than Shaq? Sure. Was he a better Laker? No. Shaq was a better Laker.


Quote:
Byron Scott
Off & on player .... D was Ok or good .... better at home, than on the road .... we're dealing with major guys ....& he was never better than the 3nd guy on any team ... others did the major work...but fits ok ..... so 3 & 7/8


I would agree that Scott was a hot-and-cold player. But the three prime years that I'm looking at were 1987-89 when he started on teams that went to three straight Finals, winning two of them: 19-4-4 on .503/.392/.870 shooting. He was quite a good shooter, was quite good at the FT line. He was a good defender, but probably didn't get as much credit as deserved because (i) people focused on the Lakers offense, (ii) you'd have to point out Magic's declining defense in those years to praise Scott, and (iii) Cooper got the Lakers press attention when it came to defense.

As far as being the never better than the 3rd player, you're talking about a roster that has Magic, Baylor and Shaq. We're at the point of the draft where we're looking for a 4th or 5th best player depending on roster needs and who is available. I got a guy who started in the NBA for a long time, including starting on 4 teams that got to the Finals, 3 of which won the NBA Titles over the Celtics (twice) and the Pistons... both of which teams had pretty good backcourts.

Context:

Rd 4
1 (Jag): Pau Gasol
2 (Yohe): Jamaal Wilkes
3 (jdw): Byron Scott

Rd 5
1 (jdw): Norm Nixon
2 (Yohe): Robert Horry
3 (Jag): Gail Goodrich

Rd 6
1 (Jag): Michael Cooper
2 (Yohe): D'Angelo Russell
3 (jdw): Bob McAdoo

The next four guards off the board where Nixon, Goodrich, Cooper, Russell and Jones (#7-1).

My need - a starting guard to pair with Magic, i.e. someone who could play defense.

I love Coop, and was very tempted to take him rather than Nixon. But Coop wasn't a starter, and never really was a scorer. A terrific bench guy that you could slot in at PG, SF and SG because he could defend each and do a little of this and a little of that on offense. Goodrich and Nixon weren't good defensive players to pair with 1985-88 Magic. DAR was an awful pick who I never had on my board to take.

Scott was a defender and a shooter. He's pretty much the obvious pick at this spot to pair with Magic given who was left.

If I had Kobe or West instead of Magic, and hadn't gotten a second guard by this point... then maybe a gunner like Goodrich would have been a better pick at this spot than Scott. Maybe. But I kind of would have preferred Scott's defense and shoot efficiency over Goodrich, especially if I also had Baylor and Shaq to go along with West when it came to scoring. You just need quality shooting and defense rather than big time scoring out of the second guard when you have the other three.

If Robert Horry, a *bench* player for you, is a "4" for you in the next round, then getting a 19-4-4 on .503/.392/.870 shooter who could defend and actually played with Prime Magic is a 4.


Quote:
Norm Nixon
Is his D good enough to play next to Magic .... well it was for a few championship years ----- he'd start for me--a take charge guy ....a point guard who can shot ... would Magic want him back? I say a 4


Bench guy, which is a role on my team that I think he would be great in. 1980-82 Nixon played with Magic and won two titles. They can work together. He's just one of my instant offense guys off the bench. If I play him with Magic, it likely would be in a "small" line up with Magic sliding into the SF/PF role while Nixon was paired in the backcourt with either Scott or Jones. The Lakers did a ton of that where you would have Magic-Scott-Coop out there, or Magic-Nixon-Coop on the earlier teams when Magic was a better defender. Given Magic was 6-8, that wasn't exactly a small line up.

I'm okay with 4 on him, though I might go 4 1/4 given it took probably the last quality PG off the boards at a point where you didn't have one yet to pair with West and Jag also didn't have one yet to pair with Kobe. You made the DAR pick in a bit of a panic, then later got a solid role player pick in Fish. Jag eventually got NVE. I think Nixon in 1980-82 was a better player than all three of those guys in their prime Lakers seasons. So maybe an extra 1/4 for a strategic pick as well. :)


Quote:
Bob McAdoo
This is not the Buffalo McAdoo --- I see him only coming off the bench .... can score, reb & block, but his team D isn't great ---- John thinks higher of him that I do so OK ... say 4.... for a 6th pick.


1982-85 McAdoo averaged 12-4-1 for us off the bench in just 20 minutes a game. That's a 22-8-2 at a Per 36 Minutes clip. He was terrific as an offensive microwave off the bench on a team that went to four straight Finals, and won two NBA Titles. His defense wasn't bad as he played the 5 on the Riley's small ball trapping line up that was a little bit ahead of its time.

He also accepted that role. McAdoo might have been a head case after leaving Buffalo, but he was a total team player when he got to LA for his last chance at redemption.

Versatile player. You could put him at PF next to a Cap for some minutes, which means you could put him next to Shaq. For me he would be more a part of the small ball line up, and some scoring bench in the second unit. He's also the type of player who was a great scorer in the 70s and 80s style of ball, but almost certainly would be even better in the modern smaller ball setting.


Quote:
Eddie Jones
Smart pick .... don't really think much about him .... played during down years .... good D good scorer ... kind of big which John needed ..... at 7th pick...smart so 4.


Eddie really wasn't a "big". He just was a "long" Guard at 6-6 who could play the SF as well, and defend the PG if needed. Offensively he wasn't a PG, but was a shooter who could take either the SG or SF roles. He could play off either Magic or Nixon, or could play in a line up with Magic and Scott. 15-4-3 on .466/.381/.771 shooting... and that wasn't low volume 3P shooting in the era - he was putting up 4+ 3P a game.

I liked this pick quite a bit. I wouldn't expect him to go this late again, but he might with Lebron and AD in the draft. KCP is an alternative with quality defense and good shooting.

I tend to agree with the 4. I think he was a better Laker than anyone taken after him. He also was better than DAR, and a better two-way player than McAdoo (#6-3) who I took right before Jones (#7-1). I did McAdoo first because I enjoyed watching him on those 1982-85 teams a lot. But Jones' two-way play would be more important to my team. I would agree with Jag's taking Copper with the #6-1 over Jones... but it's close.


Quote:
Rick Fox
Better than average at everything .... good off the bench ... maybe help Magic on D .... very good at this point.... so 4.


He wasn't really a "scorer" and instead just a role player. But he could hit the 3P, though inconsistent year-to-year with the Lakers. He could rebound a little for a SF, and was a willing passer. Very good defender.

I wouldn't disagree with a 4. Given my roster and his versatility and smarts, he's a very nice fit.


Quote:
Mychal Thompson
John needed Thompson ... good idea at #9 pick .... so 4


Played Center backing up Cap, and also played some PF playing next to cap. A very good defensive Center / PF for his era. Not a bad offensive player either.

General thought was the I could use him (i) to spot Shaq, and (ii) to pair with Shaq against a double big line up like Jag's Wilt + Gasol line up. If 80s Thompson was a tough defensive match up on McHale (which Simmons says he was), then a Thompson who came into the league in the 00s would have been a tough defensive match up on Gasol. Pao had a terrific post game for his era, but his post came wasn't at the off the charts level of McHale. I'd be okay with that while having Past His Offensive Prime Wilt being guarded by Prime Shaq... and on the other end Wilt turn into a total defensive pussy worrying about getting fouled out against the Shaqfu offense. ;)

Thompson fits my mindset as a back up behind Shaq. But I also like Vlade down her as a back up who brings some positives to the table off the bench.

That's one of the things that Steve pretty much ignored - no back up Center. I get that Jabbar would play most of the game. Still, 1976-1980 Kareem (his Lakers prime) averaged under 39 minutes a game. That means you're looking for 10 minutes a game out of a back up. I guess you'd go "small" with Odom at Center as kind of a stretchy one.

Quote:
A.C. Green
Good #10 idea, but he was average in everything.....Coming off the bench he can't hurt so Ok ... say 4.


12-9-1 from 1987-90. Championship winner. Played his role. 6-9 PF, he could play against any of the PF/C you have other than Jabbar for whom I have Shaq and Thompson.

I really expected you to take him when you started wondering about a PF. Jag got Perkins which gave him good cover at PF. His last two picks were good cover at SF (Ron-Ron) and C (Vlade), so he wasn't going to take Green. I can't remember who I had next on my board if you took Green rather than Erickson. I don't know if I was thinking Kermit Washington to be the team's Enforcer as a joke.
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Steve Yohe



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

'My thoughts: I'm going to rate the picks (not the players so much) from 1 to 5:"

The rating were of the picks as they happened, not the players. And I said "my" so they could never be wrong.---Yohe
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My thing on Magic is he quit as a player(how many times?), he quit as a coach, and he quit as a GM. He quits. That to me is a character problem. If he isn't loved, he quits. You love play makers. As a player & shooter I see them as little guys who can't shoot. Anyone can pass a ball. Of course, that's not true, but kicking around for years, that's now I feel. In the gym, no one picks a pure passer. I know it's just the opposite of your thinking.

Of course, Magic's a great player. I was there. In making those some of those picks, I was trying to get you upset. I wanted another of your long posts.

It's not as good a pick as Jabbar. #1 over all. Jabbar was the pick. I was happy when you took Magic.

I was thinking that 80 games is more than one season. It's rare for someone to play 80 games. So most likely it means two seasons. Maybe it should be regular season games.

Once two people picked centers, they weren't going to pick Shaq. Putting Wilt & Shaq or Jabbar together would be nuts. Unless you were going to play them together in the world of three point baskets. Really!!!

I was trying to put a team together that was smart & had good character. Looking at the three I think my team would beat the others. Can't see them losing. But I came in last because I didn't know how to react to the 3 point game.. So I took D'Angelo Russell and I could have picked him on the 15 round. Fucking terrible pick.

A lot of things were not explained: Were we creating these teams to play a 82 game season with other teams involve? Were they just going to play each other in a short tournament? Were we attempting to build a long term team .... like 5 or 6 years. A dynasty type thing? Our picks may have been different for any of those. Short term maybe character wouldn't count & who cares if they get along. On one of those you could work the top 7 to death & not sub.

I liked the Jones pick a lot. I didn't think of him, and I don't remember him on a real good team. I thought it was a real good pick t that point.

I was never a Scott fan. He was on & off. I thought the great team carried him. Shooting guard used to be the easiest spot to fill.

I took Malone because he was there very late. If I didn't take him, you guys might have. It was a spot I needed to fill, so I took him. Next time, if that's what you want, we need to make a list of Lakers players we can pick. And then agree on them. If we object, we can say so then.

For back up center, I had Odem, Malone, Wilkes played center in GS, and Horry could guard anyone. Jabbar was still in his prime the first too years in LA, and he played big minutes. Malone would solve any problem I had, & he was fine the year we had him. If , with Jabbar on the team, the big problem was back up center .... i'm fine.

After D'Angelo Russell, Goodrich was the worst pick. Great scorer but no D. You would have to adjust everything to cover his bad D. And with these teams you don't need scoring that much. If I wanted a star player, it wouldn't be Gail. I would want a role player who filled holes.

I don't think you should knock Worthy for getting busted with a hooker in his room. I'm pretty sure it was one of those high price hookers. Probably some collage girl trying to get thru collage or something. She probably was better than any girl John or I every sleep with. Every ball player fools around. Find something else to pick on. Worthy did everything & was big in big games ... and never bothered anyone. Great pick.

I'm not into John's stats. I wouldn't know where to find them. I'm on the computer only for WC, tOA, The data site, movie stuff & to read my email. It's all I know or what to know. Arguing with stat to me is like taking to a wall. I don't care & I don't believe in stats in basketball. I'm not basing anything on some body else's numbers. Character I base a lot of decisions on. The stats I do look at are the old ones from 30 years ago. I used to do all that stuff before I went to Viet Nam. Maybe in the 70's too, but I was going to the games then with a chick.

I think John does these contest to beat me up. Pick on the dumb guy.

Yohe
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Magic is a 5* pick in the 1st slot. It's either Magic or Jabbar at the time we drafted, with West as an outside chance.

You simply could not go wrong *at all* with either Magic or Jabbar.

As far as your rate of Shaq vs Lamar vs Worthy when they were picked, you are flat out wrong to rank Shaq lower than Lamar or Worthy. By that ranking, you're basically saying that JDW should have taken Lamar or Worthy with the first pick of the 3rd round to add to a team that had Magic and Baylor already. And that would be WRONG.

I wasn't "forced" into that pick. If I was an idiot, I could have taken someone else. Here is the Shaq pick and the next *11* picks after him:

Rd 3
1 (jdw): Shaquille O'Neal
2 (Yohe): Lamar Odom
3 (Jag): James Worthy

Rd 4
1 (Jag): Pau Gasol
2 (Yohe): Jamaal Wilkes
3 (jdw): Byron Scott

Rd 5
1 (jdw): Norm Nixon
2 (Yohe): Robert Horry
3 (Jag): Gail Goodrich

Rd 6
1 (Jag): Michael Cooper
2 (Yohe): D'Angelo Russell
3 (jdw): Bob McAdoo

I could have taken Gasol, but anyone who thinks that Lakers Gasol is a better player than Lakers Shaq is an idiot.

Laker Gasol
2009 All-NBA (3rd)
2010 All-NBA (3rd)
2011 All-NBA (2nd)

Laker Shaq
1997 All-NBA (3rd)
1998 All-NBA (1st)
1999 All-NBA (2nd)
2000 NBA MVP
2000 Finals MVP
2000 All-NBA (1st)
2000 All-Defensive (2nd)
2001 Finals MVP
2001 All-NBA (1st)
2001 All-Defensive (2nd)
2002 Finals MVP
2002 All-NBA (1st)
2003 All-Defensive (2nd)
2003 All-NBA (1st)
2004 All-NBA (1st)

Somehow you gave Jag a 5 for taking Gasol, which was no less an obvious pick at that point. than Shaq was three picks earlier. Somehow you patted yourself on the head for taking Odom and Wilkes after Shaq with 4 1/4 for each of them. Over an NBA MVP, three-time Finals MVP, six-time NBA 1st Team All Pro... all as a Laker.

The words I used is Insane, and I'll use it again. :)
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jdw
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Posts: 17269

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll go through Jag's...

Steve Yohe wrote:
Both me & John pick on Jag, so I'll try & be nice.


I don't pick on Jag. I think he had a great draft.


Quote:
Team Jag

Kobe Bryant
Well Ok .... but good luck ... I don't respect Kobe like everyone else these days. When he was playing, I always defended him, but after he retired I was very happy to see him gone. John & I seem to have changed places. I remember the bad stuff & the ego. Anyway, we know that Kobe and Wilt would be fighting over everything. It would be Kobe vs Shaq X 100. Wilt had to be #1 in every fucking thing. And Kobe wouldn't back down. I'd hate to be around for it. The only way that would work would be for Bryant to back down. And he didn't do that his first year in the NBA. Kobe was very over rated on D most of the time. He romed around a lot. He shooting % always seemed too low for me. He was very overrated as a clutch shooter & took the same bad shots all the fucking time. Up until the last few years, he was a dick to most people. Ok that's enough .... this was probably the best pick for Jag so 4 3/4.

Wilt Chamberlain
Jab going 3rd forced his hand so sure. But he could have had West & Wilt? Wilt was the guys who claimed he could sore 50 point every night but he just didn't feel like it. We lost to three inferiors teams in the finals, because of Wilt. Anyway lets say 5.


These are paired as Jag had the third pick of the 1st round and the first pick of the 2nd round. Jag was the first of us to get the two players he would build his team around.

I think we all knew one of them would be Kobe.

Shaq or Wilt was probably the more obvious pick to pair with, nailing down the Center position. I like Jag's reason for picking Wilt instead of Shaq. Also with his scoring down, it's not like Mature Kobe would need to humor Wilt like Young Kobe had problems doing with Peak Shaq. The pairing might work together better, even if Shaq was a better player.

If Jag took West instead of Wilt, I would rate Kobe as a 4 3/4 (kind of the obvious but terrific #3 pick) and West as a 5 (a massive "dare" pick thrown down at us). By "dare", I mean game out how Yohe and I would have picked. There would have been a 100% chance that Wllt/Shaq (very likely) or Gasol (100%) would have still been on the board when Jaq picked again. Yohe wouldn't have picked either Shaq or Wilt with his next two picks to sit on the bench behind Jabbar. I would have taken one of them (Shaq), and only would have taken Wilt to try to screw over Jag... but frankly wouldn't as you just can't sit Wilt on the bench and there's no way that both Shaq and Wilt could start together I'd take a starter instead.

So West would have been a 5* pick that threw down hard on us.

So 4 3/4 to Kobe as a pretty obvious pick though a fantastic player. 4 3/4 to Will for being similar, maybe 4 1/2 for "talent" since Shaq was better as a Laker, but an extra 1/4 for being ballsy to change up on the obvious Kobe-Shaq picks.


Quote:
James Worthy
Good pick & player. Fits in with anything. So 5.

Pau Gasol
Yeah. Lets say 5.


These are paired.

I'm going to pull down from the 5* ratings that Yohe gives to guys after the Top Tier (Magic, Jabbar, Kobe, West, Baylor, Shaq, Wilt) *unless* the player is a total steal that everyone else was forgetting.

That isn't at all the case for Worthy. This is pretty much exactly the range that he's suppose to be going. My guess is that Jaq fell off his chair when Worthy was available and Some One Else who isn't as good and was a bench player was picked right in front of him. In fact, because the pick before him was blown, one almost could rate Worthy down as a 3* pick because it was so obvious.

I'm going to go in the middle. It's a 4* pick. Good perfect fit with Kobe-Wilt. Could play either SF or PF. A two-way player who never got much credit for being a decent defensive player within the team defensive concept that Riley ran.

Gasol, on the other hand, was a less obvious pick at exactly this point. I stated at the time that I was hopping that Gasol would slip by both of you. I also pointed out that Jag got lucky that Gasol & Worth both slipped by Yohe.

I'm going to go 4 1/2 on Gasol. He was the best PF left on the board, at a time when we all were technically still looking for a PF (Yohe said at the time he picked him that Odom was coming off the bench and later picked Malone to be his PF). If you picked Worthy + say Scott, Yohe picked Wilkes, and I ended up with Gasol + Cooper/Nixon, I would have only given myself a 4. By that point it would have been too obvious. But credit to Jag for getting him off the boards before there was a risk. 4 to Worthy and 4 1/2 to Gasol.

Quote:
Gail Goodrich
Never could play D. Worst D player picked in the draft. Small but could play with Wilt. So 3 1/2. Would Kobe be a forward or guard. So Gail is the top guard.

Michael Cooper
Yeah. I think 4 1/4 Good role play that will last forever.


I think Coodrich is a solid 3 3/4 hear, at least. Jag had Wilt-Gasol-Worthy-Kobe in the starting line up. Wilt as a very good rim protector at the back, though athletically far from his prime. Gasol was an underrated rim protector - not a physical banger, but pretty consistently good at Blocks. He likely would be even better as a "help" defender off Wilt. When he wanted to at this stage in his career, Kobe was a very good defender. Worthy was a good defender who would have adapted to changes in how the game is played given how smart and athletically gifted he was. General point being - this was a generally good defensive group around Goodrich where you could HIDE Goodrich. That's what would have to be done on my team as well - look for a place to hide Magic away from his worst match ups. I think Jag's team could handle it. In turn, you get the great offense - Goodrich was a very good offensive player in his era, and almost certainly would be even better if he was born into the 3P era. Solid pick, kind of obvious when Jag needed a Guard. 3 3/4 to 4 range.

Coop is probably in the same range. There are a lot options here in the direction that Jag could go to start building his bench. Coop is kind of obvious given his tenure as the Showtime sixth man. So much so that I almost took him with my 5th pick rather than Nixon. On the other hand, he fits extremely well in Jag's team. He could easily pair with Kobe in the back court and take on the hardest defensive assignment. He also could slip into the SF position, letting Worthy slide to PF with either Wilt or Gasol at C in a "small" line up. Balancing "obvious" with "great fit", I'd go 4.


Quote:
Sam Perkins
Good idea. Got us into a final once. So 4 1/2.


Nick Van Exel
Yeah....good guard ... but a starter? ----lets say 4


This is about the right range for Perkins to be drafted. Combined with his Lakers Talent/Performance and how he fits into Jag's team as a back up, I'd go more along the lines of 3 1/2. With Wilt-Gasol-Worthy and the ability/desire to get Cooper some of the SF minutes to shut down quick opposing SF, Perkins isn't going to play a ton. Probably doesn't get a ton of small-ball minutes at C when you have both Gasol & Wilt. So "fit" is limited. Where I would bump it up is that Yohe was scrambling around for a PF and picking next after Jag's two picks. My PF situation also isn't super clear at the moment, though it's more likely that I have a plan rather than Yohe. ;) I'm going to go an extra 1/2 for the cock blocking move on Yohe, and another 1/4 for taking off the books someone JDW might have been interested in and say it's a 4 1/4.

I think Perkins along with Jones are the best picks of the 7th through 10th rounds, though Perkins is likely to be used less than some of the other guys in those rounds.

Van Exel is a tough one to rate. There's this:

Yohe: West-Russell-Fisher
JDW: Magic-Scott-Nixon-Jones

There was pretty much a 0% chance that I was going to take a 5th guard unless we were doing a 12+ man roster. If we were going that deep, I would likely take the 5th guard well later in the draft after I fill out needs in the front court - I had just Shaq-Baylor-McAdoo by that point.

In the case of Yohe, he thought so much of Nick the Quick that he drafted DAQ ahead of him, and then Fish the next round. I think he always had Barnett on his mind as a late pick neither of us would take.

This is a good pick. Similar to Nixon, offensive PG off the bench to lead the second unit. But it's quite possible that Jag could have let him fall to the 9th & 10th picks and possible lift one of the guys we took later. Jag wasn't taking Malone or Erickson. Barnett is another guard, and you liked Nick more. It's more a question of whether you would have preferred Fox over Ron-Ron, or Thompson over Vlade. You could have had one of those and Nick.

I'm going to go 3 1/2 for Nick. 3 3/4 to 4 "fit", but 3 to 3 1/4 "spot" because neither of us were going to take him.


Quote:
Vlade Divac
Divac never picked in LA. And he was mu favorite played. Overrated after that. He never was a gamer in my book. Say 3 & 1/2 at #9. With Wilt he isn't going to play much.


Steve's comments are why I'm going to go 2 1/2 * on Vlade.

In reality, this should be a 4* pick by Jag. Steve has 0 Centers behind Jabbar. Can't play Odom there except in a "small" line up, and Odom can't defend real centers. Horry can't play Center. Malone isn't a Center... and really isn't even a Laker. ;) I've just taken Thompson earlier in the 9th round, the perfect back up for Jabbar. Vlade is the last best person on the board to back up Jabbar and make some positive contributions in limited playing time. Jag has just cock blocked Yohe's best possible 10th round pick, following up on my pick of Thompson.

Except...

Yohe hates Vlade. Hates his so much that he can't even picture him playing 10 minutes a night while Jabbar rests... and actually making some positive offensive contributions with the second unit.

It's been almost 20 years since Yohe regularly bagged on Vlade on the boards, so it's hard to remember how much he hates him.

It's a good pick. I would have taken Vlade late if Thompson went off the board. Jag's team doesn't need a back up center at all - Gasol can move to C went Wilt sits, and Perkins can play it in a small line up. So it's like a 4* pick if there was a chance that Steve was going to take him, and you screwed him. He's a useful player. But Steve wasn't going to take him, and Jag's team doesn't really need him. I think 2*.


Quote:
Metta World Peace
I don't want World Peace making decisions. It worked out for the Lakers, but it's more trouble. I don't know. Good D ... I guess. So at #10 I give 3 3/4.


I'd give this a 3*. Good late pick, a defensive specialist that you could slap on a SF or non-tall PF. Lakers Ron-Ron was Past His Prime Ron-Ron. But he did have one strong defensive series of fucking up Paul Pierce's offensive in the 2010 Finals. So there is some value as a specialist if say Baylor was going off and you needed to put someone on him for a stretch to make Baylor work harder. But with Wilt-Gasol-Worthy-Perkins and even Coop at SF, he's not going to play much. Solid filling out of the roster.

Quote:
So Kobe playing forward then you got guard problems so he must be a guard. The guard are also small. Goodrich is a hole in the D if he starts. I guess you push everything into Wilt, who would have to be the center of everything. A lot of questions with this group.


His starting line up is kind of obvious:

G Kobe Bryant
G Gail Goodrich
F James Worthy
F Pau Gasol
C Wilt Chamberlin

There are no real questions there. Goodrich's defense isn't good. That's one of five, and if for some reason there's a problem, he has Cooper on the bench.

Bench:

Michael Cooper (PG/SG/SF)
Sam Perkins (PF/C)
Nick Van Exel (PG)
Ron Artest (SF/PF)
Vlade Divac (C)

Let's say for example he's playing Yohe's Lakers:

Kobe defends West
Goodrich defends Fish
Worthy defends Wilkes
Gasol defends Malone (or some real Laker PF)
Wilt defends Jabbar

Fish is exactly the type of player you want to "hide" Goodrich on. He's not a scorer at all. You don't run Pick & Roll for Fish. You don't run him through multi-layered screens like Reggie Miller. He doesn't create offense. His "PG" function was little more than bring the ball up, pass it to Kobe or dump it into Shaq. The balance of his offense was just a spot up at the 3P line and wait for kick outs if his defender leaves him. He is the PERFECT guy to have Goodrich defend. He's not exactly Klay Thompson in that regards either. Which means that Goodrich could rotate and help with others, with other (Worthy and Kobe) rotating to close out Fish if the ball ended up with him after Goodrich went to help elsewhere.

Wait... wait... wait... it gets worse:

Scott defends West
Magic defends Fish
Baylor defends Wilkes
Green defends Malone (or some real Laker PF)
Shaq defends Jabbar

Fish is actually the perfect player for Magic to defend. The difference between Magic and Goodrich is that Magic at the point in his career was actually a good Help Defender, just a poor point-of-attack defender, and would have a tough time chasing someone like Kobe in the Reggie Miller role of running through a bunch of screens.

Basically Lakers Team Yohe has created the perfect starting line up where Goodrich and Magic couldn't get exposed on defense.

So perhaps all the talk about the defense of Goodrich and Magic can be put to bed.


Quote:
Jag if you had taken West, I'm not sure I would have taken Kobe? I think I would have taken Baylor & forced Kobe on John? Today I think Baylor is better than Kobe, but then injuries need to be considered. I wonder how than works. I don't think my team would have been as good.


It never was a question of Jag taking West rather than Kobe. It was this:

Kobe & Wilt vs Kobe & West

If he took West, it creates a draft like this:

Rd 1
1 (jdw): Magic Johnson
2 (Yohe): Kareem Abdul--Jabbar
3 (Jag): Kobe Bryant

Rd 2
1 (Jag): Jerry West
2 (Yohe): Elgin Baylor
3 (jdw): Shaquille O'Neal

Rd 3
1 (jdw): James Worthy
2 (Yohe): Lamar Odom or Some Guard (?)
3 (Jag): Wilt Chamberlin

Rd 4
1 (Jag): Pau Gasol
2 (Yohe): Lamar Odom or Jamaal Wilkes or Some Guard (?)
3 (jdw): Byron Scott / Wilkes / Odom

Rd 5
1 (jdw): Wilkes / Odom / Norm Nixon


Jag gets *better* getting Kobe-West-Wilt-Gasol. It would be a piece of cake for him to find a SF later.

i have no idea what you would have done after West was off the boards, other thank taking Baylor. You would have needed two starting guards and a starting PF. Given the issues you had finding one starting guard to pair with West, and finding a PF at all, it would have been messy.

Thank Jag for taking Wilt rather than West as it really saved you.

I would have been okay even you took Scott in a Guard Panic. Eddie Jones would have still been sitting there in my 6th/7th spots to take the Scott Role next to Magic. I also would have been happy with any combo of Wilkes-Odom-Nixon in the 4th/5th spots.

As said earlier, I don't think that Jag understood that if he took Jerry that he (i) would still get Wilt in the 3rd, and (ii) really throw Team Yohe for a ringer.
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Steve Yohe



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Location: Wonderful Montebello CA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had West to expose Kobe & I had Jabbar to expose Wilt & Shaq.

Having the greatest player in history at center & knowing I would play him like 40 minutes a game, I wasn't worried about a back up center. I had a number of guys who could play center for a few minutes a game. I was going to play Jabbar 40 minutes a game. Wilkes played center at GS behind Clifford Ray. Horry could guard anyone.

When Divac was a rookie he was my favorite player & was as long as he was a Lakers. You don't remember because you weren't watching pro basketball then. In phone calls I'd start talking Lakers & you'd shut me up. You didn't want to hear about it. It you did like a team it was S. A. or Duke. You raged on the Lakers until they got Gasol. Divac was an Ok player, but he got a lot of PR in Sacramento & I thought he the type who would never beat you. I don't remember . I think he would just stop playing in the clutch. But as a person, I liked him. I never ragged on any in a major way until you & James started praising Kaman while watching wrestling in my living room. You guys were like:"What's wrong with Kaman?". I almost chocked on my chicken!!! And I had a big chicken. So for years it was all I talked about .... and I was right. Maybe I could have pick Kaman for my back up center. Or George Mikan.

Ok a back up center would matter as much if these team were playing a 82 game season against all the NBA teams....rather that play your teams a bunch of times against Wilt & Shaq every night. But that was never explained. Maybe I would have taken Shaq to stop one of us from having a superstar center. It would be worth having Shaq sit to block someone. Could we believe someone could win this without a top center? Could Jab win with Darrell Imoff?

If I didn't get West, I really don't know if I would gotten Baylor .... because this whole contest is about pleasing the two other bias's. If you don't think something then it can't be right. Back a few years ago, everyone had forgotten Baylor, and I was crying about everywhere. They thought I was a fanboy. I probably wouldn't pick him & just gone with someone I believe you think highly of. No one could pick Mikan, you would believe he could play today.

I don't know when you came over the the Baylor side. It must have come after reading something of the computer. You would never lesson to me.

Hey I came in last. I'm the chump. I just don't know why you have to be so mean to Jag. The real winner. Don't fucking tell me that Shaq was a better player that Jabbar or Wilt .....don't do that please! --- Steve Yohe
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JAG



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 2301

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I appreciate both of you putting aside your Kobe hate to acknowledge his Lakers (He insists we call Team Jag that) would put Magic and Kareemís Lakers down.

You two would have to go a long way to convince me that the old Wilt my team would have isnít the best or second best pure athlete taken in this draft. Iíve seen the tape of him blocking Milwaukee Kareemís Skyhooks. Itís him or Kobe. Maybe Shaq, but he missed 25 games year with stomach pulls all the time.

Add Big Game, Coop, Artest and Van Exel and the athleticism edge would just be too much. Mix in the high-skill level of Goodrich, Gasol, Divac and Perkins and itís a wrap.

;)

Jagdip
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jdw
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Posts: 17269

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JAG wrote:
I appreciate both of you putting aside your Kobe hate to acknowledge his Lakers (He insists we call Team Jag that) would put Magic and Kareemís Lakers down.


I'm not sure that I'd go that far. I do think you drafted a starting line up that gives me problems, specifically in the Pao match up. Which is why I drafted Thompson - someone who could defend Pao. In a playoff series I would make adjustments in the starting line up based on who we play. Again Yohe, I don't have a problem starting AC Green. Again you, Thompson can start.


Quote:
You two would have to go a long way to convince me that the old Wilt my team would have isnít the best or second best pure athlete taken in this draft. Iíve seen the tape of him blocking Milwaukee Kareemís Skyhooks. Itís him or Kobe. Maybe Shaq, but he missed 25 games year with stomach pulls all the time.


Shaq averaged 73 games a year on the 2000-2002 three-peat teams. HE played in all 58 playoff games that year, averaging 30-15-3. He played in all 15 Finals games, averaging 36-15-4. That's JDW Shaq. He's going to be fine. Don't forget that it was Wilt who jaked the injury in the 1969 Final, and then only played 12 games in his second season with the Lakers before choking like a dog in Game 7. ;)

I really don't think 32-36 year old Wilt is the best or second best athlete we drafted. Young Philly Wilt when he broke in? Sure. Not old Wilt. Young Baylor was a better pure athlete than Old Wilt.

We also know that when Ed Rush or Dick Bavetta start calling fouls properly on Shaq's defenders that Wilt is going to turn into a whimp trying to protect him No Foul Outs streak. ;)

Quote:
Add Big Game, Coop, Artest and Van Exel and the athleticism edge would just be too much. Mix in the high-skill level of Goodrich, Gasol, Divac and Perkins and itís a wrap.


Baylor, Buck, Scott, Jones, Nixon, Fox, Green... I've got athleticism. Along with Shaq's freakishness. Plenty of skill guys as well, and a versatile bench.

I think it would be a a great series of adjustments between our teams in the Final. :)
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