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HOF Attendance Overview

 
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matt farmer



Joined: 29 May 2010
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:52 pm    Post subject: HOF Attendance Overview Reply with quote

I posted this on another site. Might be some good discussion here:

Below is a list of the wrestlers that are on this years Hall of Fame ballot. What I have done is look through my extensive research and counted the number of times each wrestler has been the top draw on a card that drew 10,000 or more fans.

For tag teams I only took into account the times they appeared as a team.

Of course there are pros and cons to this research. It will favor guys in the current era because information is more readily avaliable and in todays system, larger buildings are ran more frequently by the only promotion in town.

It also favors wrestlers in the United States and Canada, while Japan results are pretty accurate they ran their business differently in that country same with Europe. My research has expanded greatly over the last few years for Mexico and Puerto Rico. But it is still not nearly as accurate as the United States. Same with other foreign countries as well.

This is just another tool to use when selecting this years Hall of Famers.

Next to each name is a number. That number represents the number of cards they headlined or were the main draws on a card that drew 10,000 or more fans.

I FOLLOWED THE HISTORICAL PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES
Gene & Ole Anderson {20}
The Masked Assassins (Jody Hamilton & Tom Renesto) {4}
Red Bastien {11}
Pepper Gomez {32}
Ray Gunkel {0}
Dick Hutton {10}
Hans Schmidt {22}
Kinji Shibuya {30}
Wilbur Snyder {35}
John Tolos {35}
Enrique Torres {29}
Kurt & Karl Von Brauner w/Saul Weingeroff {5}
Tim "Mr. Wrestling" Woods {8}

I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES
Batista {133}
Edge {129}
Owen Hart {44}
Curt Hennig {59}
Ivan Koloff {72}
Fabulous Moolah {2}
Pedro Morales {82}
Dick Murdoch {31}
Rock & Roll Express (Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson) {27}
Sabu {3}
Sgt. Slaughter {86}
Jimmy Snuka {52}
Sting {81}
Mr. Wrestling II {35}

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN JAPAN CANDIDATES
George Gordienko {5}
Gran Hamada {28}
Volk Han {6} includes MMA/Shoot
Seiji Sakaguchi {19}
Kensuke Sasaki {73}
Kiyoshi Tamura {19} includes MMA/Shoot
Steve "Dr. Death" Williams {34}

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN MEXICO CANDIDATES
Perro Aguayo Jr. {92}
Atlantis {127}
Cien Caras {120}
Karloff Lagarde {21}
Blue Panther {76}
L.A. Park {67}
Huracan Ramirez {12}
Vampiro {73}
Villano III {76}
Dr. Wagner Jr. {112}

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN EUROPE CANDIDATES
Big Daddy {3}
Henri DeGlane {28}
Horst Hoffman {2}
Mick McManus {0}
Kendo Nagasaki {0}
Jackie Pallo {0}
Rollerball Mark Rocco {2}
Johnny Saint {0}

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN AUSTRALIA/PACIFIC/PUERTO RICO CANDIDATES
Spyros Arion {22}
Carlos Colon {89}
King Curtis Iaukea {7}
Mark Lewin {13}
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matt farmer



Joined: 29 May 2010
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When looking this over for the historical wrestlers it really helps the case of Wilbur Snyder. I really didn't think he would have been comparable to some big names like Pepper Gomez and John Tolos. Enrique Torres and Kinji Shibuya also have their claims made stronger too.

For modern candidates this would seem to hurt Dick Murdocks chances, and show you were he sits with the other major draws he is up against. Was he that great of a worker to go in before heavy hitters like Sgt. Slaughter, Batista, Edge, Sting and Pedro Morales?

While I understand the modern era and why it's broken up the way it is I would really like to see Morales and Slaughter be compared with others. The industry is much different today because many of the numbers that Batista and Edge and even Sting pulled in are due to headlining TV's, which are sold usually off the brand and the top star of that era more than induviduals.

For Japan one of the big surprises (well it will surprise some) is the ranking of Gran Hamada. Who was a big draw in Mexico during one of the countries hottest runs ever. He was in that mix, but not the big reason for many of the draws. But he was in the mix. I would like to see Japanese Hamada be compared with those in Mexico. That's where he made his name.

Kensuke Sasaki is interesting. His numbers are strong. But not sure if he has my vote.

Mexico will be getting a lot of my attention this year. And by looking at their numbers, many of these luchadores have been long over looked.
Cien Caras, Atlantis, Dr. Wagner Jr and Perro Aguayo Jr are all strong candidates. And I've watched enough of Cien Caras from the 80's to know that he wasn't as bad of a worker that some think. Though in the early 90's he could have bad matches. The other 3 are all top flight wrestlers and have the whole package. What should make Cien Caras and Atlantis's cases stronger is that while I have a ton of results from the 80's no way is it complete. I would guesstimate that I'm about 45% to 50% on attendances. Maybe much lower.

Carlos Colon is another name that I am dumb founded is not already in. Like above the attendances I have are in the very low percentage. So I could safely say his numbers should be doubled.
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JAG



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 2285

PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:17 pm    Post subject: Re: HOF Attendance Overview Reply with quote

Interesting stuff, but the current guys should be judged on PPV buys and merchandise. When the product is hot, they sell out everything (or when the Rock comes back), otherwise it's just the PPVs and occasional RAWs. The Rock might be the only one to move attendance in years.

But this is fascinating for everyone else.

matt farmer wrote:

I FOLLOWED THE HISTORICAL PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES
Gene & Ole Anderson {20}
The Masked Assassins (Jody Hamilton & Tom Renesto) {4}
Red Bastien {11}
Pepper Gomez {32}
Ray Gunkel {0}
Dick Hutton {10}
Hans Schmidt {22}
Kinji Shibuya {30}
Wilbur Snyder {35}
John Tolos {35}
Enrique Torres {29}
Kurt & Karl Von Brauner w/Saul Weingeroff {5}
Tim "Mr. Wrestling" Woods {8}

I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES
Batista {133}
Edge {129}
Owen Hart {44}
Curt Hennig {59}
Ivan Koloff {72}
Fabulous Moolah {2}
Pedro Morales {82}
Dick Murdoch {31}
Rock & Roll Express (Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson) {27}
Sabu {3}
Sgt. Slaughter {86}
Jimmy Snuka {52}
Sting {81}
Mr. Wrestling II {35}

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN JAPAN CANDIDATES
George Gordienko {5}
Gran Hamada {28}
Volk Han {6} includes MMA/Shoot
Seiji Sakaguchi {19}
Kensuke Sasaki {73}
Kiyoshi Tamura {19} includes MMA/Shoot
Steve "Dr. Death" Williams {34}

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN AUSTRALIA/PACIFIC/PUERTO RICO CANDIDATES
Spyros Arion {22}
Carlos Colon {89}
King Curtis Iaukea {7}
Mark Lewin {13}


A few meandering thoughts.

How many of Sgt. Slaughter's impressive total came during the 1999-91 run? Those should be discounted, because that was the worst year of the Hogan era. One of those was the WM 7 that was supposed to draw 100,000 fans and drew 15,000. That should take away eight of those 86 right there. ;)

Kensuke Sasaki can't be in. He was a second tier guy in every respect and certainly not a HOFer.

That's a shockingly low number for the R&R Express considering how romanticized they are and how hot Crockett was supposed to be in that era. Or maybe they just didn't headline enough?

Did Sting get credit for every Nitro fly-in he did?

I could see voting for Morales and Koloff. I've heard Dave's logic of keeping Morales out (he didn't headline anywhere but WWWF) but Jackie Fargo and Konnan are in. Was Morales ever treated like a mid-card jabroni like Konnan has been in everywhere but AAA?

Koloff was a very good worker, a good enough draw and seems to have maximized his Russian heel character. What do I know?

Jagdip
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Steve Yohe



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 3086
Location: Wonderful Montebello CA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"That's a shockingly low number for the R&R Express considering how romanticized they are and how hot Crockett was supposed to be in that era. Or maybe they just didn't headline enough? "

To get credit for drawing, you have to be in the main event. I always thought they were mid-card tag guys & Flair or someone was in the main.
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Steve Yohe



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 3086
Location: Wonderful Montebello CA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for Tolos, I don't think he got over in enough areas as a single. In LA he was a HOF'er. Considering how close LA was to the Japan promotions, he should have dome something major over there. All the other LA superstars, Blassie, Thesz, Destroyer & even Chavo, did.

I don't know why that is and why he didn't get over in more territories. I think maybe he was old & homesteading when he got to LA...and didn't want to travel anymore and just caught on fire. Some insiders seemed to not like his style of over the top interviews & his ring work.--Yohe
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matt farmer



Joined: 29 May 2010
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:06 pm    Post subject: Re: HOF Attendance Overview Reply with quote

JAG wrote:
Interesting stuff, but the current guys should be judged on PPV buys and merchandise. When the product is hot, they sell out everything (or when the Rock comes back), otherwise it's just the PPVs and occasional RAWs. The Rock might be the only one to move attendance in years.
Jagdip


I agree with PPV's. I did mention that current guys are scewed heavy due to TV tapings and what not. At the moment I am adding to my research PPV's that drew over 100,000 buys. And in the future I may increase that level.

As for Rock and his comeback, business wasn't all that great with Rock's recent return. Not nearly as good as people make it out to be.

Current guys should be judged on PPV's and Merch. As well as live attendance. That is usually the first sign that business is getting better, and has been proven that way over the last 15 years.
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JAG



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 2285

PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:24 pm    Post subject: Re: HOF Attendance Overview Reply with quote

matt farmer wrote:
I agree with PPV's. I did mention that current guys are scewed heavy due to TV tapings and what not. At the moment I am adding to my research PPV's that drew over 100,000 buys. And in the future I may increase that level.

As for Rock and his comeback, business wasn't all that great with Rock's recent return. Not nearly as good as people make it out to be.


There was a RAW sellout streak from mid-February through Mania and house shows were up as soon as the first weekend after he appeared. Meltzer figures he added 10% bump to the Mania buyrate and that's assuming this year would have done the same as last, which seems highly unlikely, since the card stunk out loud. PPV revenue was up 27% total and I'd give 26.9% of that credit to the Rock.

Jagdip
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JAG



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 2285

PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:03 pm    Post subject: Re: HOF Attendance Overview Reply with quote

matt farmer wrote:
I agree with PPV's. I did mention that current guys are scewed heavy due to TV tapings and what not. At the moment I am adding to my research PPV's that drew over 100,000 buys. And in the future I may increase that level.


You must increase that level. There was a time when WWE did 300,000-700,000 buys for the B shows and better for Rumble, Summerslam, Wrestlemania.

Ask Dave or somebody who's studied it for years to find out what the *he drew* baseline would be. Obviously going back to the 1990s and 80s the numbers would be different. And realistically, Hogan headlined every WWF PPV from 1985-1992 WrestleMania.

Jagdip
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kjh



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 544

PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sasaki was a late bloomer and by the time he put all the pieces together to be an effective headliner the Japanese business was already on the slide. He still racked up a few impressive Dome numbers and Budokan sellouts. Given where the HOF is at, it wouldn't be a sin if he got in. Other than Hiroshi Tanahashi, there really isn't going to be any strong Japanese candidates in the future.
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tomk



Joined: 03 Jun 2011
Posts: 12
Location: New Orleans

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In sep 12th observer Meltzer wrote:

Quote:
Wrestler/historian Matt Farmer in doing the Hall of Fame balloting listed the top 15 performers on this year’s ballot when it comes to headlining shows that have drawn more than 10,000 fans. Keep in mind that this list favors modern performers because there are so many fewer shows than ever before, and it’s a lot easier drawing when there are two shows a year in your market as opposed to in many cases 52 in your city and another 100 within short driving distance each year. Plus, modern wrestlers in many ways draw more based on just being in the promotion as opposed to based on individual drawing power, as in the past, and those in Mexico usually headlined trios matches so there was more opportunities for people to draw on top.

The top 15 are: 1. Batista 133; 2. Edge 129; 3. Atlantis 127; 4. Cien Caras 120; 5. Dr. Wagner Jr. 112; 6. Carlos Colon 89; 7. Sgt. Slaughter 86; 8. Pedro Morales 82; 9. Sting 81; 10. Villano III 76 and Blue Panther 76; 12. Vampiro and Kensuke Sasaki 73; 14. Ivan Koloff 72; 15. L.A. Park 67

To me, I still find it more accurate, instead of total number of shows, to base it on where you placed based on the standards of your time. By that standard, the top names on this year’s ballot are:

1. Pedro Morales; 2. Perro Aguayo Jr.; 3. Ivan Koloff and Batista; 5. Sgt. Slaughter; 6. Henri DeGlane; 7. Cien Caras and Wilbur Snyder; 9. Hans Schmidt; 10. Atlantis and Dr. Wagner Jr.; 12. Gorilla Monsoon; 13. John Tolos.


There is no explanation of how he came to the conclusions he does inorder to create second list.


Since I'm interested in the luchadors:

Quote:
And the Luchadores are still in a position to look stronger because when a promotion is hot, and they are drawing, you have six people on top in most shows as opposed to two or four in the U.S. or Japanese markets. Atlantis has been a major star in Mexico forever, and part of two major boom periods. But having seen him through virtually his entire career and during both of those periods, he was a guy along for the ride and not the guy causing the ride, as opposed to a Mistico, El Hijo del Santo, Perro Aguayo Sr., Vampiro, Konnan or Canek, who were genuinely big drawing cards and not just guys who worked six mans on top when business was strong. That’s not to say Atlantis shouldn’t be in the Hall of Fame, but if he goes in, in my mind it should be because he’s a great wrestler in the ring and his longevity at the top is great, a headliner consistently for a quarter-century. Some guys go in for drawing power, and even if some people’s numbers look good, that doesn’t necessarily tell the story that they are great draws.


Without the dates and matches that make up the lucha matches I have a hard time buying his conclusions.
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Steve Yohe



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 3086
Location: Wonderful Montebello CA

PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The more I think about it, the more I'm sure that the only true HOF is the Observer HOF. The other three don't measure up.

The WWE HOF is a joke. It's a company PR event for Wrestle Mania. I have no respect for it or anyone who talks about it as a true HOF. I don't care that the wrestlers picked get paid to show up. Weakens it in my mind.

The Iowa HOF is a amateur HOF and has no clue when it comes to Pro Wrestling. What good is a HOF without Jim Londos in it. It's the one true amateur HOF, but it doesn't understand the pro's & worries too much about what Lou Thesz thought.

I used to have respect for the NY PWHF but I've become disillusioned over the selections & ballot last year & this year. They aren't using historians and the voting is slanted toward performers & insiders. It also has a NY and WWE bias. The International group this year had no Japanese wrestler included. Otto Wantz was on it but no Jumbo Tsuruta or Misawa. The PWHF seems to be bias against Mexico & Japan. Santo isn't in yet & there are tons of others worthy from Lucha. There modern group is made up of the WWF performers. To me, Japanese had the greatest performers & dominated the sport from 1983 to 1997. But I think it's hopeless. Pro wrestling is just North America to them. They worry about the annual dinner too much. It having a building means nothing to me. A HOF is judged by it's mistakes and I'm losing faith in the PWHF....and feel bad about it.

The WON HOF has it's faults, but it's the only true international HOF and it's the hardest one to get it. It's the most thought out HOF. It's the major one with the fewest mistakes. There is no ring, the winners don't get paid, and there is no building to support....you just get respect.--Steve Yohe
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