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NBA Top 50 Players of All-Time
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Rian



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 2223

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Parker top 50? No, he's not quite there yet. I'd take Drexler over Parker any day of the week. His hammy and subsequent weight gain aren't doing him any favors. if the Spurs are going somewhere, he'll need to pick it up soon.
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jdw
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Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 16866

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Tony will end up Top 50 because of the Rings.

That's to a degree due to luck: Tony had the good luck of playing for Pop and with Timmy, while Clyde had the bad luck of playing for the Blazers and getting to play with someone like Hakeem only late in life.

Clyde was flashier, scored more, boarded more, and is right there for assists. But Tony probably would have increased his stats playing for someone other than Pop. Might not have been as good of a player, but would have been able to light it up more.

I don't know how well Clyde would have played for Pop. Like I wrote, Clyde would have been a great (and willing) #2 to a force of nature like Hakeem. But playing for Pop is such a different beast: you're really constrained by the system, and Pop doesn't have any fear of sitting you on your ass if you're not with the program. Clyde was a smart and willing teammate, but he might have found Pop stifling.

To me they're in the same ballpark, though coming at it from different directions.
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Rian



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That three year stretch for the Blazers was hot, and really the best out of those three teams got bounced by Magic in the Conference Finals. Clyde is unlucky in that Adelman was his coach, and more importantly Sabonis never came over when he truly was healthy.

Jury is still out on Parker for me, but I may be underrating him simply because he was so "unneeded" during many big games this last year in the playoffs. Does anyone remember he sat out the 2nd half of game 6 against the Thunder? I guess it's the little things with the rings that get him up into that top echelon but I think he's still just outside in the top 60 or so.
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jdw
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's had some poor post season games, and been banged up over the last two seasons. But he's also had a lot of big post season games, and even played well while the rest of the team has flamed out in the post season. In 2008 when the Lakers bounced them, Tony and Tim were good in the last two games while the rest of the team as hit and miss, and Manu no showed. Lots of strong games to point to over the years.

Yeah... Clyde was unlucky, from pretty much the start. He should have gone to the Rockets in a Sampson deal before the 1984 draft, which would have put him in his perfect role (#2 to Hakeem). Or one could look at the value they got for Jim Paxson, Mychal Thompson, Calvin Natt, Wayne Cooper, Fat Lever off that 1983/84 team and bang your head against the wall at how stupid the organization was (example: if you have Clyde and claim you aren't taking Jordan because of it, then you probably should trade Paxon coming off back-to-back 21-22 PPG seasons when his value is at its highest). The Blazers did a horrendous job of maximizing the tremendous mass of talent and picks they had in the 80s into a championship team by getting at least one additional superstar next to Clyde. Adelman is a "good" coach, but not a great one.

Loved that 1990/91 WCF where the underdog Lakers took out the Trailblazers. We didn't know just how good the Bulls were, so we thought we won the NBA Title with that series. Then we took Game 1 of the Final, and everything looked great... and then the world came crashing down. :)
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jdw
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


"Jag... amigo... I need your help. Yohe has me #14
and Williams has me #7. Both of them have me
behind Duncan and Bird. I need you in here to get
my back. Do a list... don't let me down!"
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JAG



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 2195

PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jdw wrote:

"Jag... amigo... I need your help. Yohe has me #14
and Williams has me #7. Both of them have me
behind Duncan and Bird. I need you in here to get
my back. Do a list... don't let me down!"


Don't worry Kobe, I got ya. Definitely ahead of Bird, we'll see about Timmy.

Jagdip
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jdw
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



"We're sitting here, I'm supposed to be a Top 50 Player,
and Yohe & Williams are in here talking about practice.
I mean, listen, we're talking about practice, not Top 50,
we talking about practice. Not Top 50. Not, not... not
the Top 50 that I go out there and die for and play
every game like it's my last. Not the Top 50, but we're
talking about practice, man. I mean, how silly is that?"


;)
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jdw
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


"Mikan #10? Pettit #13? The Big
Aristotle #16? Who is this Steve Yohe?
The hell with Kobe... you better get
my back to, Jag?"
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jdw
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do I have to troll you more to do a list, Jag? :)

Seriously, we need you to do a list. :P
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JAG



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 2195

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Here it is, the list. I threw in some comments.

1. Jordan: I wish there was a way to argue against, but he was tremendously talented that it completely covered his flaws.

2. Kareem: If he's four years younger, how do we remember him and the next guy?

3. Russell: He won too much to not be at least here.
4. Magic
5. Wilt

6. Kobe: I just saw him beat Duncan's team too many times straight up (with Bean as the best player) for them to flip-flop. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

7. Duncan: Wonderful player and the managing of his minutes allowed him to jump a level or two at the end.
8. Bird

9. LeBron: Odd as it seems, he might fall short of even reasonable expectations for him.

10. Shaq: Easily could have five spots higher on the list. Odd to remember him that way.

11. West
12. Oscar
13. Moses
14. Hakeem
15. Isiah

16. Mailman: Almost Hank Aaron-like with his stats.

17. Barkley: Was better at his peak then Malone, but he wasn't as dedicated.

18. Havlicek
19. Baylor
20. Dr. J

21. Dirk: Him and the next guy are hard to separate.
22. Garnett

23. Barry

24. Stockton: Way underrated.

25. Pippen
26. Sam Jones
27. Wade
28. Drexler
29. Frazier

30. Durant: Projecting of course, but resume is quite strong already.

31. Robinson: Could have been top 10 with a different demeanor.

32. Thurmond
33. Elvin
34. Payton
35. Nash: The MVPs were undeserved, but he was a game-changer.

36. Mikan: Have to have him and the next guy somewhere.
37. Petit

38. Dominique
39. Gervin
40. Cowens
41. Ewing
42. Reggie Miller
43. Ray Allen
44. McHale
45. Worthy
46. McAdoo
47. Pierce
48. Kidd
49. Paul
50. Iverson: Just ahead of Rodman and Pau for me.


Last edited by JAG on Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:51 pm; edited 2 times in total
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jdw
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay... cool! Now Yohe and I will have to pick it apart! :P
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jdw
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have McHale twice at 44 & 47.

Not sure who you were thinking of in one of those slots: Pierce, Cousy, Reed, Greer...

Initial thought is that there's not a lot of "going out on a ledge" picks. :)

CP3 was #90 when Bill did his paperback revision (through the end of 2010). His first three years with the Clips averaged 19-4-10 with 2.5 steals a game, another assist title, led the league in steals all three years, the team played .665 ball in the best run in franchise history... so I suspect that Bill would move him up quite a bit from his #90 spot, probably somewhere in the 40-60 range that you had him. I probably have him close to that range as well, but was kind of waiting to see how this year turns out since the clubs seems to be stalling in the regular season (even before Blake went down).

You like Reggie Miller more than all of us.

Dan Issel perhaps is one you have a bit higher than anyone: Bill had him at #76, while Steve and I didn't have him in the Top 50. Don't know where Steve would have him in a Top 100. I always thought he was a soft center: could score, but was weaker than most in defending Cap (whereas a number of others would try to physical him), pedestrian rebounder, never made you fear driving the lane.

What's funny is that I remember his midrange jumper, but youtube has a clip of his dropping 34 on the 76ers right after the merger, and there's only two of them. He drains one, and clanks the other at the buzzer. The rest are all post ups, transition and drives.

I was talking to Yohe about this McAdoo clip the other day:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuQ3unu2YAQ

He drops 50(!!!) and grabbed 21 boards on the Bullets in the 1975 playoffs. Doo *averaged* 37.4 PPG in the series against Unseld and Hayes, dragging it to seven games against a team that made it to the Finals (only to get swept by the Warriors). Watch the degree of difficulty of the jumpers he's taking. When he's not jumping over Unseld with that lovely jumper, he's beating his ass down the court. :) He's also drawing foulsm getting to the line (10/14).

Ain't no way Dan Issel was better than Doo, Jag. ;)
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jdw
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW, my favorites in the vid were the quick combo of:

* Doo getting his MVP at halftime

* first play of the half, Doo has Unseld so bamboozled by the sweet J that Wes bites on the pump fake and Doo goes right around him for the mid-key double clutch jumper over Hayes... making a pair of overrated Pyramid Players look like fools on one play

* next play after the inbound, Doo has embarrassed Unseld so much that they put White Guy on Doo, send a runner to help (I think Porter) and have Unseld drift over to help... and Doo beats all three like fools. :)

There's another where he takes an offensive rebound over Hayes (who oddly isn't jumping much on it) and hits a sweet J.

Doo was awesome. Sure, he had had the coked out years. But we're talking about someone who was a 18-9 rookie, then 31-15, 35-14 & 31-12 in his prime as an undersized center. Then in his coked out post prime went 26-13, 27-13, 25-9 & 21-8. Wait... that's Doo on coke not giving a crap?!?! Holy crap!!! Then he crashed out in 1980/81 at 10-4, his career looking over as a pair of teams just wanted him to go away.

Then what happened? He became one of the greatest 6th men in this history of the game on Lakers teams that went to four straight Finals, winning two of them over the 76ers and Celtics.

Playoffs? 30-13 in 28 playoff games with Buff and the Knicks averaging 44 minutes a game, then 13-5 for us in 61 playoff games in just 23 minutes a game.

Come on Jag... watch this package from the 1982 playoffs and tell me Doo doesn't deserve to be on the list:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTGDs8-jJj4

:)


Last edited by jdw on Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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JAG



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 2195

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fixed with Pierce in for second McHale and McAdoo replacing Issel.

I put him in because he ranks so high in all-time NBA-ABA leaderboards even factoring in ABA inflation.

Jagdip
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Steve Yohe



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
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Location: Wonderful Montebello CA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WOW!! Jag put Dirk at 21 and his pick makes the All-star team the very next day. That influence!--Yohe
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