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NBA Top 50 Players of All-Time
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guren



Joined: 31 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"It's not a coincidence, man."
-- LeBron James
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Steve Yohe



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Location: Wonderful Montebello CA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Clippers, with the worst history in the NBA, can't retire McAdoo's number. Nuts! Only Ralph Lawler means more to the team history. When the Knicks traded McAdoo to Boston, they got 3 first round draft picks & player to be named later. Wow.--Yohe
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Rian



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would agree with Jag's ranking of Reggie Miller, he was very much underrated for much of his career. That game at MSG (with the shorter 3 point line that no one brings up anymore) was classic.
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JAG



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reggie Miller was always awesome in the playoffs. That matters a lot to me. Took a team to the Finals as the offensive hub. Just a tick ahead of Ray Allen because of that.

I took it too seriously to go out on limbs. :)

Jagdip
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Steve Yohe



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My feeling about Miller was that he'd have a huge game & then do nothing in the next. That's wrong?--Yohe
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JAG



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reggie wasn't an all-time great, but played like it in the playoffs.

18.2 points per game to 20.5 in the playoffs and that's with the final 1/5 games coming as a role player on those Artest and Jermaine O'Neal teams.

Jagdip
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Rian



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot to post that if you ranked Reggie at spot X, his sister Cheryl would have to be a couple spots ahead. She almost always schooled him.
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Steve Yohe



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

18 to 20 points for a great shooter/scorer doesn't really impress me as a top 50 guy. He always seemed on & off to me. I haven't checked it, but that's want I remember. A pure shooter, with only that job to do, should do better to hit the top 50 level.

I grew up in the pre-3 point era. Subtract a point from his point total & see want he really averaged. Wish the rule had been around for Jerry West.

Allen & McHale were killers & won titles.--Yohe
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JAG



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Yohe wrote:
18 to 20 points for a great shooter/scorer doesn't really impress me as a top 50 guy. He always seemed on & off to me. I haven't checked it, but that's want I remember. A pure shooter, with only that job to do, should do better to hit the top 50 level.

I grew up in the pre-3 point era. Subtract a point from his point total & see want he really averaged. Wish the rule had been around for Jerry West.

Allen & McHale were killers & won titles.--Yohe


...as second or third bananas. Reggie was the guy on those teams and made 3 or 4 other conference finals. He's there for me.

Jagdip
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Rian



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JAG wrote:
Steve Yohe wrote:
18 to 20 points for a great shooter/scorer doesn't really impress me as a top 50 guy. He always seemed on & off to me. I haven't checked it, but that's want I remember. A pure shooter, with only that job to do, should do better to hit the top 50 level.

I grew up in the pre-3 point era. Subtract a point from his point total & see want he really averaged. Wish the rule had been around for Jerry West.

Allen & McHale were killers & won titles.--Yohe


...as second or third bananas. Reggie was the guy on those teams and made 3 or 4 other conference finals. He's there for me.

Jagdip


What JAG said.
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jdw
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd give Reggie some credit for getting to the ECF if they actually beat strong teams to get there. They really didn't:

NBA 1994 Playoffs:
Won NBA Eastern Conference First Round (3-0) versus Orlando Magic
Won NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals (4-2) versus Atlanta Hawks
Lost NBA Eastern Conference Finals (3-4) versus New York Knicks

Penny was a rookie and Shaq was a second year player. This was post-prime Hawks. Those weren't two strong teams. Then they jobbed to the Knicks.

NBA 1995 Playoffs:
Won NBA Eastern Conference First Round (3-0) versus Atlanta Hawks
Won NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals (4-3) versus New York Knicks
Lost NBA Eastern Conference Finals (3-4) versus Orlando Magic

The Hawks were far worse in 1995. The Pacers beat the Knicks. Then they got rolled by the young Magic team, which in turn got swept by the Rockets.

NBA 1998 Playoffs:
Won NBA Eastern Conference First Round (3-1) versus Cleveland Cavaliers
Won NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals (4-1) versus New York Knicks
Lost NBA Eastern Conference Finals (3-4) versus Chicago Bulls

The Cavs weren't any good: Fat Kemp in a slow down, defensive crappy offense Fratello team. The Knicks were past their prime: 43-39 with Ewing declining. The Pacers did make a good showing against the Bulls, but this was a past its prime Bulls team that had a low tank in that post season.

NBA 1999 Playoffs:
Won NBA Eastern Conference First Round (3-0) versus Milwaukee Bucks
Won NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals (4-0) versus Philadelphia 76ers
Lost NBA Eastern Conference Finals (2-4) versus New York Knicks

Strike year. The Bucks weren't good. The 76ers were a horrible collection of talent carried by AI to the playoffs. Then the Pacers jobbed to the washed up Knicks.

NBA 2000 Playoffs:
Won NBA Eastern Conference First Round (3-2) versus Milwaukee Bucks
Won NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals (4-2) versus Philadelphia 76ers
Won NBA Eastern Conference Finals (4-2) versus New York Knicks
Lost NBA Finals (2-4) versus Los Angeles Lakers

The Bucks were a gunning George Karl team that played no defense and barely got over .500. The 76ers were still a horrid group of talent carried by AI and Larry Brown. The Knicks were still a washed up team.

NBA 2004 Playoffs:
Won NBA Eastern Conference First Round (4-0) versus Boston Celtics
Won NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals (4-2) versus Miami Heat
Lost NBA Eastern Conference Finals (2-4) versus Detroit Pistons

The Celtics were 36-46 and the Heat were 42-40. The Celts had Pierce and a bunch of crap. The Heat had Wade before he got great, Odom before he became a Laker and got better, and a bunch of chum. Setting aside that Reggie was washed up this season and it really was O'Neal and Ron-Ron's team.

Their only "quality" post season wins in those years was the over the Knicks in the mid-90s. That's mitigated by the fact that:

* pretty much everyone at the time and since then looking back thinks that the Knicks "quality" was excremental and destructive to the league. People might grudgingly respect the Bad Boy Pistons (or in my case hold them in high regard), but not one has anything good to say about those Knicks.

* the 1999 job to a horrible Knicks team pretty much washes away those earlier wins

The East from 1991-98 was held up by the Bulls. Hakeem's Rockets and then the Spurs & Lakers pretty much exposed what the rest of the East was like when there wasn't Jordan to carry them.

* * * * *

I don't have a problem with Reggie being in the Top 100 for being (i) excellent at exactly two things (3P & FT), and (ii) being a icy late game shooter.

But he was a terrible defensive player, who couldn't rebound and stunningly shitty assist man. He basically ran around screens, caught and shot. He was good at it, though not off the charts in the terms of volume.

I don't think he was as good all around as Allen, who worked hard and smartly defensively even if he wasn't All-NBA defense level. I don't think Reggie was better than Worthy, who I didn't have in my Top 50 either.

I like that Allen was able to reinvent himself twice. He averaged 26.4 PPG his final year in Seattle, a number Reggie never attained. He was willing the next year to go to Boston, become part of a Big 3 where all of them dropped their scoring averages and just cared about winning. Then when the Boston run was done, he was willing to go to Miami, take a hit to his "stardom" by coming off the bench, play key minutes, and make big shots to win another title and then get to a 4th Final.


Last edited by jdw on Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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JAG



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By this logic the 80s Lakers never beat a good team until the Finals.

Reggie Miller was better than Ray Allen. Miller carried the Pacers in those playoff series you dismissed. Allen did that how many times?

Jagdip
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jdw
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NBA 1980 Playoffs:
Won NBA Western Conference Semifinals (4-1) versus Phoenix Suns
Won NBA Western Conference Finals (4-1) versus Seattle SuperSonics
Won NBA Finals (4-2) versus Philadelphia 76ers

Suns were 55-27. Westphal was 1st Team All-NBA having his last prime season. Walter Davis in his last prime season before the coke got him. One of the best power forwards in the game at the time in Truck. The 80s old school equiv of a stretch center in Alvan Adams who could drag Jabbar away from the lane with his jumper. This was a better Suns team than the one that went to the Finals for the famous series with the Celtics. They were a very good team.

The Sonics were the defending NBA Champs, winners of the West the prior two seasons. This was before Gus Johnson sat out a season, he was at his very peak. DJ was at his peak, and DJ & Gus were the best all around back court in the NBA. Lonnie Shelton was a tough power forward (especially against us), and hadn't gotten totally fat like he would in a few years. Sikma was an All Star center in 1980, still young and getting better from the one who started on the title team. Downtown Freddie Brown was one of the two or three best bench players in the league, Mr. Instant Offense off the bench well before The Microwave played the same role for the Bad Boys. That was a hell of a team, with the series far closer that it looked with a pair of great second half performances by the Lakers in Game 4 and Game 5 to put them away.

Of course the 76ers were better than any team the Pacers beat in the playoff runs I cited. All three of these teams were better in the context of their time than anyone the Pacers beat.

NBA 1981 Playoffs:
Lost NBA Western Conference First Round (1-2) versus Houston Rockets

The was an embarassment. ;) But the Pacers had a few like that.

NBA 1982 Playoffs:
Won NBA Western Conference Semifinals (4-0) versus Phoenix Suns
Won NBA Western Conference Finals (4-0) versus San Antonio Spurs
Won NBA Finals (4-2) versus Philadelphia 76ers

These Suns were a shell of what they once were. I'm not a fan of Gervin as you could see from my list, so I'm not going to pimp these Spurs as being any good.

The 76ers were better than any team the Pacers beat in those series listed above.

NBA 1983 Playoffs:
Won NBA Western Conference Semifinals (4-1) versus Portland Trail Blazers
Won NBA Western Conference Finals (4-2) versus San Antonio Spurs
Lost NBA Finals (0-4) versus Philadelphia 76ers

The Blazers were a good team with depth, but really weren't a threat. Again not going to put over the Spurs.

Those 76ers were great.

NBA 1984 Playoffs:
Won NBA Western Conference First Round (3-0) versus Kansas City Kings
Won NBA Western Conference Semifinals (4-1) versus Dallas Mavericks
Won NBA Western Conference Finals (4-2) versus Phoenix Suns
Lost NBA Finals (3-4) versus Boston Celtics

Kings weren't any good. The Aguirre-Blackman Mavs were improving, but not at the level they would reach later in the decade. Shitty Suns team that upset the Blazers and Jazz. They did have some good players, with Nance coming on... which always pains me since he was available in the draft when we took McGee.

The Celts were great.

NBA 1985 Playoffs:
Won NBA Western Conference First Round (3-0) versus Phoenix Suns
Won NBA Western Conference Semifinals (4-1) versus Portland Trail Blazers
Won NBA Western Conference Finals (4-1) versus Denver Nuggets
Won NBA Finals (4-2) versus Boston Celtics

Suns were shitty. Not a strong Blazers team yet. Run-and-Gun Nuggets who were "fun" and won 52 games, but I'm not going to pump as being strong.

NBA 1986 Playoffs:
Won NBA Western Conference First Round (3-0) versus San Antonio Spurs
Won NBA Western Conference Semifinals (4-2) versus Dallas Mavericks
Lost NBA Western Conference Finals (1-4) versus Houston Rockets

Spurs sucked. Mavs were Aguirre-Blackman era, Perkins in his second season taking a step foward, Derek Harper taking a step foward. They were a better team than their record, but not as good as they would later become.

The Rockets were a good team, at their Twin Towers peak.

NBA 1987 Playoffs:
Won NBA Western Conference First Round (3-0) versus Denver Nuggets
Won NBA Western Conference Semifinals (4-1) versus Golden State Warriors
Won NBA Western Conference Finals (4-0) versus Seattle SuperSonics
Won NBA Finals (4-2) versus Boston Celtics

Denver could score but couldn't defend, and weren't any good. The Warriors weren't good. The Suns were a bad team that upset the Mavs. The two best other teams in the West were the Mavs and Blazers, and both jobbed to avoid playing the Lakers. ;)

The Celts were great.

NBA 1988 Playoffs:
Won NBA Western Conference First Round (3-0) versus San Antonio Spurs
Won NBA Western Conference Semifinals (4-3) versus Utah Jazz
Won NBA Western Conference Finals (4-3) versus Dallas Mavericks
Won NBA Finals (4-3) versus Detroit Pistons

The Spurs a bad run-and-gun team.

The Jazz had Malone (28-12) and Stockton (15-3-14) in their first big seasons. Bailey oddly played Worthy tough heads up, perhaps due to the similar oddball long wingspan. Eaton was the rim protector of the era, even if he was an oddball. Their 47-35 doesn't look great, but that's because they were trying to figure out what they had: 18-22 start, then went on a 29-13 run to the finish. They knocked out a strong Blazers team in the first round. That was a good team, right at the start of their run. That WCSF was a WAR.

This was the peak of the Aguirre-Blackman Mavs. Aguirre would be traded the following season. Harper took another big step foward as a PG (17-3-8), and Tarpley became a beast of a 6th man (14-12). Actually, Schrempf and Davis were a useful off the bench in addition to Tarp. Heck, remember that this was the last full season that Tarp played to get an understanding off why the team fell apart. This was a really good team at that moment, a brutal series that we only won because we had the home court.

The Pistons were actually a better team than the Lakers that year, but of course we're not giving that title back. ;)

NBA 1989 Playoffs:
Won NBA Western Conference First Round (3-0) versus Portland Trail Blazers
Won NBA Western Conference Semifinals (4-0) versus Seattle SuperSonics
Won NBA Western Conference Finals (4-0) versus Phoenix Suns
Lost NBA Finals (0-4) versus Detroit Pistons

The Blazers had a good core, but were dealing with (i) finally realizing how bad the Vandeweghe deal was, and (ii) Bowie missing most of the season for the third straight year. They gave up on Kiki during the year, and on Bowie in the off season after 1989, retooling into the team that became the best in the West over the next three seasons. They were a mess in 1989.

This was the peak of the Bickerstaff Sonics. Dale Ellis' best year at 28-4-2, Xavier McDaniel still at his peak, a decent supporting cast. Better than a lot of the teams the Pacers beat, but I'm not sold they're better than the best Knicks teams that the Pacers went toe-to-toe with... and Bickerstaff is no Riles.

The Suns were the best run-and-gun team in the NBA. This was a really strong team at the start of their run that tends to get overlooked by the first year Barkley got there. They just had the bad luck of running into the Lakers (past their prime but gagey) or Blazers (hitting their peak) three out of four season. They went 1-1 against us, and 0-2 against Blazers. Just bad luck as the Blazers were a tough match up for them, and they rant into us when we were hot in 1989. They were good, and the Pacers never really beat a team as good as them.

The Pistons were great.

So what really good to great teams did we beat in the 80s?

1980 Western Conference Semifinals (4-1) versus Phoenix Suns
1980 Western Conference Finals (4-1) versus Seattle SuperSonics
1980 NBA Finals (4-2) versus Philadelphia 76ers
1982 NBA Finals (4-2) versus Philadelphia 76ers
1985 NBA Finals (4-2) versus Boston Celtics
1987 NBA Finals (4-2) versus Boston Celtics
1988 Western Conference Semifinals (4-3) versus Utah Jazz
1988 Western Conference Finals (4-3) versus Dallas Mavericks
1988 NBA Finals (4-3) versus Detroit Pistons
1989 Western Conference Finals (4-0) versus Phoenix Suns

5 great teams in the Finals, and 4 really good teams in the West and one near-great team (1980 Sonics).

Reggie's Pacers had the 1995 Knicks, who I'm not sold is better (in the context of their season) than any of the five WC teams listed above for the 80s Lakers.
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jdw
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JAG wrote:
Reggie Miller was better than Ray Allen. Miller carried the Pacers in those playoff series you dismissed.


He carried them in series where they beat shitty teams? Eh.

They won a single quality series in his career: against the 1995 Knicks. He shot 23-4-3.

If we're going by carry teams to wins over shitty or subpar opponents in the post season...

2001 Eastern Conference First Round: Milwaukee Bucks 3-1 Orlando Magic

Allen averaged 25-6-5

2001 Eastern Conference Semifinals: Milwaukee Bucks 4-3 Charlotte Hornets

Allen averaged 23-4-7

2005 Western Conference First Round: Seattle SuperSonics 4-1 Sacramento Kings

Allen averaged 32-5-5.

Those Kings went 50-32, but it wasn't just post-Webber injury but the season they traded him to the 76ers. So I wouldn't chalk them up as still being a strong team come the playoffs.

Anyway, Allen was the best player on the three series his teams won prior to the Celtics, and "carried" them every time.

Reggie's equiv of Allen's romp over the Kings was averaging 32-4-2 in a three game sweep of the shitty Hawks in 1995.

Of course Reggie had other memorable playoff moments, but so did Ray.

* * * * *

Ray had the bad luck to play on bad-to-mediocre teams in his prime. The bad luck started here:

June 26, 1996: Stephon Marbury drafted by the Milwaukee Bucks in the 1st round (4th pick) of the 1996 NBA Draft.

June 26, 1996: Ray Allen drafted by the Minnesota Timberwolves in the 1st round (5th pick) of the 1996 NBA Draft.

June 26, 1996: Ray Allen traded by the Minnesota Timberwolves with a 1998 1st round draft pick (Rasho Nesterovic was later selected) to the Milwaukee Bucks for Stephon Marbury.

"On paper" the notion of pairing up Marbury with young Kevin Garnett coming off his rookie year seemed like a dream. In reality it didn't work at all, and two and a half seasons later:

March 11, 1999: Stephon Marbury traded by the Minnesota Timberwolves as part of a 3-team trade, with Chris Carr and Bill Curley to the New Jersey Nets; the Milwaukee Bucks traded Terrell Brandon to the Minnesota Timberwolves; the Milwaukee Bucks traded Elliot Perry to the New Jersey Nets; the Minnesota Timberwolves traded Paul Grant to the Milwaukee Bucks; the New Jersey Nets traded Sam Cassell and Chris Gatling to the Milwaukee Bucks; and the New Jersey Nets traded Brian Evans and a 1999 1st round draft pick (Wally Szczerbiak was later selected) to the Minnesota Timberwolves.


Terrell Brandon, Brian Evans and the draft pick that turned into Wally Szczerbiak...



Put Allen with KG, keep that 1998 pick, avoid the other shitty deals the Wolves made... and that would have been a good pairing with Allen, whose personality fit with KG better than most.

I'm not going to say Reggie had a cast of HOFers, but he did play with a good supporting cast that the team regularly made efforts to improve / freshen up. Generally speaking, they were a well run, smart organization during his career. Can't say that of the Bucks and Sonics.
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jdw
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a side note...

This is what Top 50 lists are all about: bar type debates. So I'm not dogging you on Reggie. I like him... he'd be in my top 100... I think. But we all have guys we like a lot and pimp. :)

As a second side note...

I'm really tempted to bump Nate and put Roger Brown on the list.
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