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NBA Top 50 Players of All-Time
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JAG



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 2195

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Duncan thing has gone too far.

Shaq was better in his prime, which mostly paralleled. Kobe was better from 2007-2013. Timmy is an all-time great, but there is such small separation at the top, that not being utterly dominant in his own era has to be held against him.

Jagdip
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jdw
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Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 16866

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have a problem with Timmy at #4 - that's where I have him. If I were a GM, I flat out would rather have his career to build a team around rather than Shaq's (not even close) or Kobe's (close).

These guys:

4. Tim Duncan
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Kobe Bryant

Are all really close to me.

I'd rather have the peaks of 5-7, and it's not like they were short peaks. It's also not like Tim at his peak wasn't an exceptional player: he was a two-time MVP in a highly competitive era, and really should have won four straight. Where Tim goes over the top on the others is his Career. It's a batshit long career, with the only peer in terms of "longtime good" at this end of the list being Jabbar.

In the end when ranking those guys, it's really who I would prefer to build my team around if I was able to get their entire career.
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jdw
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Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 16866

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On DeBusschere, I get the comments about his outside shot. It's the type of stuff that Simmons probably came across. My issue is more that he wasn't shooting all 25 footers, the highlights I've seen are mostly inside and mid-range shots, and there that .432 FG%. Just looking at the math...

As a Knick, if he shot 30% of his shots from behind the line, and made 1/3rd of them, his splits would look like this:

.333 3P%
.484 2P%

Reggie Miller was:

.395 3P%
.516 2P%

And 37% of his shots were from 3P.

One doubts that DeBusschere was hoisting up 37% of his shots from behind what's the current arc, or even 30%... because no one cared to make sure they were behind a line. "Long range" really were 20 footers back in the day. We know this because of how slowly it took for the NBA to start making the 3P a weapon: even the "long range" shooters of the era like Bird initially weren't paying a lot of attention to the line and where they tossed up shots. They were shooting within *their* range, not three point range.

Anyway, let's good DeBusschere's ability since .333 3P really isn't great. Let's say he shot .375 in those years, which isn't Curry off the charts, but is good.

.375 3P%
.466 2P%

Does that make a lot of sense?

It doesn't for me given the legend of the great ball passing & movement Knicks. If DeBusschere really was a great shooter from "beyond the modern arc" and also getting lots of good clean looks, does anyone think a guy who could drain 37.5% from long would shot .466 from shorter in that era?

I'm not saying he was a bad shooter. Hondo "only" shot .439 (though it was .419 with Russell and .454 post-Russell, so there was a big change in his shooting when Russ retired). But...

Jerry West shot .474 in his career. He was a guard, and we have plenty of footage of him shooting outside. Perhaps not mega long range like the current arc... but he still was a .474 shooter.

DeBusschere shot *40* points lower than that. Despite being a power forward, taking less shots, not being a lead gunner on a team that opponents were trying to contain...

I just don't buy him being a clear 3 Point Monster as much as I do Bob McAdoo having the potential to be the greatest "stretch 4" that ever lived... before coke would slow him down. :P

432
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Rian



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 2223

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JAG wrote:
The Duncan thing has gone too far.

Shaq was better in his prime, which mostly paralleled. Kobe was better from 2007-2013. Timmy is an all-time great, but there is such small separation at the top, that not being utterly dominant in his own era has to be held against him.

Jagdip


Come on Jag, live a little!
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jdw
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Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 16866

PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lebron
#4 - Yohe
#9 - Jag
#10 - jdw
#11 - Elliott

I'm not ready to go as high as Steve. If the Cavs had somehow pulled this out, I would have moved him to #4 behind MJ-Cap-Russell. But... I do think we might need to move Bron up a couple of slots.
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elliott



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jdw wrote:
Lebron
#4 - Yohe
#9 - Jag
#10 - jdw
#11 - Elliott

I'm not ready to go as high as Steve. If the Cavs had somehow pulled this out, I would have moved him to #4 behind MJ-Cap-Russell. But... I do think we might need to move Bron up a couple of slots.


Dude, I said this exact same thing to a friend of mine after Game 3. If they won, I would have moved him to 4. I'd bump him ahead of Wilt, Larry, and Oscar. I don't have the heart to put him above Jerry West even if he probably belongs ahead of both West and Kobe but behind the big 4 (Russ, MJ, Timmy, Kareem)
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JAG



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 2195

PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMDiy8g3HDs

He made the Finals out of a shit conference and did the job to the the champs. Eh.

Jagdip
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jdw
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JAG wrote:
He made the Finals out of a shit conference and did the job to the the champs. Eh.


Looking at my list:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Tim Duncan
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Kobe Bryant
8. Wilt Chamberlain
9. Jerry West
10. LeBron James

I'd move him up past Logo and Wilt to #8.

Which isn't that far off from what you had before the season even started:

Jag's List
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Kobe
7. Duncan
8. Bird
9. LeBron
10. Shaq
11. West

You had him at #9. I'd have him at #8. The one slot is just the difference between how we rank Wilt.


Last edited by jdw on Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:29 pm; edited 2 times in total
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JAG



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 2195

PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LeBron is Wilt.

And nothing he did this year makes him pass Wilt for me.

Jagdip
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jdw
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Posts: 16866

PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


"Yes... I'm trolling Guren here..." ;)

Looking at when we posted our lists:

Dec 12, 2014 - Yohe
Jan 19, 2015 - jdw
Feb 12, 2015 - Jagdip
Apr 11, 2015 - Elliott

It looks like it's getting close to the time we revist this. Perhaps best to wait for the off season, as:

* close the books on Kobe
* seems like the final run of Timmy to close the books on him
* Dirk possibly taking two mediocre teams to the playoffs since the last time we did this
* Curry "has to be somewhere" if Dubs repeat like they're playing now
* fork in the Lebron road
* possible major fork in the Durrant road
* 2015 post season and this season for the now 30-year old CP3

Maybe something for folks to keep in the back of their minds / noodle around with for a list to toss up after the playoffs are over.

We'll have to drag Guren into it this time as well. ;)
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jdw
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Posts: 16866

PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two new list were done in Jan-Feb of this year by SI's Jack McCallum and a long running series by ESPN.

Jack McCallum 2016 List
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Magic Johnson
5. LeBron James
6. Oscar Robertson
7. Larry Bird
8. Bill Russell
9. Jerry West
10. Tim Duncan
11. Elgin Baylor
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Bob Pettit
14. Moses Malone
15. Shaquille O’Neal
16. Hakeem Olajuwon
17. Karl Malone
18. Julius Erving
19. Elvin Hayes
20. Charles Barkley
21. Walt Frazier
22. John Havlicek
23. Scottie Pippen
24. George Mikan
25. Dwyane Wade
26. George Gervin
27. Rick Barry
28. David Robinson
29. Isiah Thomas
30. John Stockton
31. Stephen Curry
32. Bill Walton
33. Jerry Lucas
34. Kevin Garnett
35. Clyde Drexler
36. Dave Bing
37. Dirk Nowitzki
38. Bob Cousy
39. Patrick Ewing
40. Willis Reed
41. Hal Greer
42. Dave Cowens
43. Kevin Durant
44. Jason Kidd
45. Allen Iverson
46. Bill Sharman
47. Chris Paul
48. Dolph Schayes
49. Kevin McHale
50. Paul Arizin
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jdw
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ESPN 2016 List
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem-Abdul Jabbar
3. LeBron James
4. Magic Johnson
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Larry Bird
7. Bill Russell
8. Tim Duncan
9. Shaquille O’Neal
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Oscar Robertson
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Jerry West
14. Julius Erving
15. Moses Malone
16. Karl Malone
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. Charles Barkley
19. John Stockton
20. David Robinson
21. Kevin Garnett
22. Kevin Durant
23. Steph Curry
24. Elgin Baylor
25. Scottie Pippen
26. Isiah Thomas
27. Dwyane Wade
28. John Havlicek
29. Chris Paul
30. Steve Nash
31. Kevin McHale
32. Patrick Ewing
33. George Mikan
34. Bob Petit
35. Jason Kidd
36. Clyde Drexler
37. Rick Barry
38. Walt Frazier
39. Bob Cousy
40. Elvin Hayes
41. Gary Payton
42. Bill Walton
43. James Worthy
44. Dominique Wilkins
45. Paul Pierce
46. Allen Iverson
47. George Gervin
48. Willis Reed
49. Russell Westbrook
50. Ray Allen
51. Reggie Miller
52. Bob McAdoo
53. Wes Unseld
54. Bernard King
55. Dave Cowens
56. Pau Gasol
57. Robert Parish
58. Tony Parker
59. Carmelo Anthony
60. Earl Monroe
61. Manu Ginobili
62. Alex English
63. Tracy McGrady
64. Dennis Rodman
65. Alonzo Mourning
66. Chris Webber
67. Dwight Howard
68. Bob Lanier
69. Vince Carter
70. Artis Gilmore
71. Pete Maravich
72. Adrian Dantley
73. Dikembe Mutombo
74. Dolph Schayes
75. Blake Griffin
76. Tiny Archibald
77. Joe Dumars
78. Sam Jones
79. Jerry Lucas
80. Grant Hill
81. Sidney Moncrief
82. David Thompson
83. Chris Mullin
84. Dennis Johnson
85. Dave DeBusschere
86. Chris Bosh
87. Chauncey Billups
88. Billy Cunningham
89. Yao Ming
90. Paul Arizin
91. Maurice Cheeks
92. Nate Thurmond
93. Lenny Wilkens
94. Mark Price
95. Marc Gasol
96. Bobby Jones
97. James Harden
98. Gail Goodrich
99. Kevin Love
100. Shawn Kemp
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jdw
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So... time to rethink these. The obvious one:

LeBron James: #10 --> #4

I don't have him above Jordan, Russell & Cap. Don't think he can pass Jordan or Russell baring an insane run ahead. Jabbar is extremely hard to chase down. Bron is 31, and 32 next season. One can look at what Jabbar did from 32 on, and it's pretty nuts. Bron is already in "decline" relative to his peak (last two years in Miami), similar to Jabbar was by that point. But they both are/were insanely great even when slightly off their peak.

I'd also have Steph no worse than #50, which was Bill Walton in my last list. I think if you line Walton's career up with Steph in a "if he dropped dead on Friday" fashion, Steph has already done more than Walton did in his entire career.
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jdw
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The series isn't over yet, but if it goes the way it's going, that would make Bron 3-5 in Finals. Which a lot of people are going to knock.

It got me to wondering when driving home tonight about:

Exactly how many of these series should Bron have won, or been expected to win?

I think it's actually fewer than most people think.
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guren



Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1205

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jdw wrote:
Exactly how many of these series should Bron have won, or been expected to win?

I think it's actually fewer than most people think.


According to the www.sportsoddshistory.com site, LeBron's teams have been favored in just 2 of the 8 series.

2007
Spurs -450
Cavs +360

2011
Mavs +155
Cavs -175

2012
OKC -175
Heat +155

2013
Spurs +180
Heat -220

2014
Spurs -155
Heat +135

2015
Dubs -220
Cavs +190

2016
Dubs -220
Cavs +180

2017
Dubs -240
Cavs +200

If he somehow pulls this one off, he would certainly have a case for #2 or even #1B. I am not saying I would put him there yet, but it wouldn't be completely nuts.

glenn
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