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corrado
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JAG
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Steve Yohe
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
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Location: Wonderful Montebello CA
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 Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| When it comes to the trainers, he may have a point.---Yohe |
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jdw
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| JAG wrote: | | https://twitter.com/bball_ref/status/1005605485989519360?s=21 |
Differences when looking at the Per 36 since Ingram played 3 more minutes a game (shittier team with less depth at his position):
PPG/RPG/APG:
17-6-4 Ingram
17-6-2 Brown
Ingram played "point" a fair amount when Ball was out, which wasn't insignificant since Ball was out a lot and the Lakers didn't really have any point guard depth.
FG%/3P%/FT%/2P%:
.465/.395/.644/.507 Brown
.470/.390/.681/.483 Ingram
Ingram had a higher FG%, but it's an illusion - Brown shot better from both 3P and 2P range. Brown just happened to shot more 3P's per game... a lot more, which we will get to in a second.
Brown's Effective Shooting % (factoring 3P as worth three points and 2P as worth two) was .540, which Ingram's was .497. The NBA average was .521. If Brown were a team, he would have ranked 5th in the NBA. If Ingram were a team, he would have been tied for 29th.
Ingram's problem?
That .483 from 2P range is is bad. Really bad. The entire NBA averaged .510 from 2P range. Brown is below average. Ingram's .483 is between the 28th team (Memphis) and the 29th team (Sacto).
Here's the problem in their attempts:
FGA/2PA/3PA/FTA
13.4/8.3/5.1/3.9 Brown
13.9/12.0/1.9/5.1 Ingram
Ingram takes more 2P shots, and is really shy about his 3P. Brown takes three more 3P a game. Neither is a good FT shooter, and neither gets to the line much. Ingram gets there an extra time a game since he's a slasher.
Ingram shot more 3P per 36 minutes in his rookie season than in his second second. That's the big reason his 3P% went up this year - he wasn't taking them, and stuck to super uncontested ones.
Brown increased his 3P attempts by a shot and a half, and increased his % from .341 to .395.
% of attempts by distance
0-3FT/3-10/10-16/16<3/3P
.375/.152/.135/.200/.138 Ingram
.356/.136/.055/.071/.381 Brown
Brown took it to the rim close to the same about as Ingram, but eliminates the mid-range and long-2 shots, while Ingram shoot considerable more of those low efficiency shots than 3P.
Shooting % by distance:
0-3FT/3-10/10-16/16<3/3P
.670/.207/.350/.434/.390 Ingram
.622/.321/.409/.368/.395 Brown
Ingram shoots better at the Rim and on the bane of modern hoops - the Long 2. Brown shoots better everywhere else, and doesn't waste time with those low % shots. The 3P again is close only because Ingram just didn't take them this year.
Ingram put up nearly half his shot from 3 Ft to the three point line (.487) and shot a terrible .340 on those shots. 29% of his shots were 3-16 feet, and he shot a horrific .274 on them. That's a problem that needs work.
One of the other big items:
Games:
70 Brown
59 Ingram
Both got banged up here and there. Ingram got banged up more.
Defense... Brown as an honorable mention on Zach Lowe's All Defensive team discussion. Ingram wasn't mentioned.
* * * * *
I like Ingram. I'm not saying he's a bust.
I like Brown more. He's already a more natural Big Guard who can 3&D quite well.
Ingram is a Wing who doesn't really play wing at the moment, isn't a 3&D guy, and is more of a Slasher & a Kinda-Sorta-Point Option. I like that Point Option at such a young age. One of the things that is key to the greatness of the Death Lineup is that Steph & KD & Dray & Iggy can all handle the rock and pass like son's a guns. Ingram isn't remotely the passes than any of those guys (or Livingstone when playing in the Coma Lineup)... but he's also just 20 years old. There's room to grow there with the right desire and coaching. I don't know if he has the natural feel that Dray and Iggy have for creativity, but Hard Work & Desire would go a long way as that's a massive part of what makes those two great.
Ingram's defense is 20 year old defense. I don't get the feeling of him being clueless like one often feels with Randle over the years. Just young, and needing to work on it and figure it out. But Brown already has figured a shitload of it out. A lot of that is the Boston organization and staff being very focused on the defensive side. But Brown clearly has down the desire there.
Ingram's 3P needs a ton of work. He seems to know it's not sharp as he's cut back on it when you would expect him to get more comfortable after a year. The Mid Range Game is fucking horrible, and is only "saved" by a decent Long 2 game which opposing teams would pay him to keep tossing up 16-20 footers at a .434 clip rather than 3P at a .390 clips (or lets say .350 clip if he took a more reasonable amount).
I don't think Ingram is a block head, so he knows he needs to work on it. In turn, or coaching staff also knows it's an area to work. I have some hope that it will improve.
In turn, Brown looks like a guy who will push his 3P numbers into the .400+ range and increase the volume.
* * * * *
Rounding out to the original reason this came up.
If you're looking for a pair that fit with Bron, it would be Tatum and Brown rather than Ingram and Zo. The 3&D game of their fits more. Their ability to step into big moments this post season without Irving is something we now know about them, and aren't entirely sure about BI & Zo.
Going further, I think Tatum & Brown & Rozier would fit better with Bron next year compared to Ingram & Zo & Kuz. Rozier of course is a payroll issue coming up since he's from the draft the year before Ingram and Brown. But two 3&D Wings and a Guard who can play off the ball dominated by Brown but also Point to rest Bron... that fits like a glove.
Luckily, Bron hates the Celtics and they already have Kyrie so he's not going there and we can avoid that nightmare scenario. ;) |
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jdw
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Good lord... I haven't posted like that in several years. Must be bored or something. :/ |
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guren
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| I am old enough to remember when jdw used to go long on a regular basis. |
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JAG
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 2192
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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Ingram is a year younger.
He’s also been better at the same age as Jaylen Brown since it’s been measured.
I can only hope this encourages Uncle John to compare their age 20 seasons.
:P
Jagdip |
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jdw
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:28 am Post subject: |
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I know he's a year younger. You're twiter link was 2nd year comps.
BI was marginally better at 20. Shot more, got to the line more, scored more. Was less efficient because he didn't shoot 3's. Brown was better at the line as a rookie than in his second year, topping BI by a couple of points. 19 game difference in games played.
Tough comps since Brown was a rookie on a 53 win team chasing the best record in the East and with the second leading scoring on the team starting in front of him. Ingram was a second year player on a still mediocre team with the decks cleared of anyone who could possible challenge him for playing time. |
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corrado
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
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Location: LI
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JAG
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 2192
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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Thems jokes, Corrado.
They have been killing each other all season.
Jagdip |
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corrado
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corrado
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 4751
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corrado
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JAG
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 2192
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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George.
LeBron loves Dame Lillard. Magic may be trying to snag him and Kawhi instead.
Jagdip |
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jdw
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Posts: 16849
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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Woj updated himself to mention Kawhi might want to be a Clipper instead of a Laker.
I doubt that the Lakers will trade for 2 superstars. The difference between PG and the other two is that he can come for Free. Which means that those Kid Pieces can be used as trade bait to fill in the rest of the roster - either Kawhi or Lillard, and then Big and/or Guard and/or Point, etc.
The other thing about PG is that he likely will sign instantly with the Lakers. If you try to string him out while Bron takes his time to make Decision 3.0, you run the risk of PG getting tired and signing with someone else. |
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